------------------------------
1999 #1351
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 23:53:13 EST
From: GypsyComet
Subject: That vessel on the SMC cover
>>From: GypsyComet ON Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:07:01 EST
>>
>>Dan Roseberry asks:
>>
>>>4. The Spinward Marches Campaign
>>>Question: Does anyone know details and type of the ship
>>>on the front cover? It looks to big to be a Type S scout.
>>>I've decided that the other one is one of those 200 ton
>>>STL merchants from Hard Times.
>>
>>There are some marvelous errors of perspective on that
>>cover, but based on the size of the airlock hatch and the
>>bridge deck on top, this is actually closer to 500-700 tons.
>>It carries the insignia of the Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles,
>>so it is either a Ducal starship (personal Yacht?) or one of
>>the SDBs maintained by the Duke's Own.
>>
>>The little one on the back cover is 100-200 tons of tramp
>>freighter. NBD.
Andy Long types:
>I assumed that the pictures showed the incident that starts the adventure -
>the BATRON jumps into the systems and finds evidence of a recent space
>battle (ISTR). That would make the trader the ship that was the vitcim of
>the attack, and the dart-shaped ship is one of the squadron's Battle Riders
>(and the silhouettes in the book look like that, too....)
>
>regards, Andy
The paragraph mentions a batron, but that the investigation of the wreck takes place from a gunboat. I can live with a 400-ton displacement on the pictured vessel...
What iteration of Traveller do y'all want this thing in?
GC
------------------------------
#1352
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 00:57:56 -0800
From: Steven Hudson
Subject: Re: That vessel on the SMC cover
>From: GypsyComet
>Subject: That vessel on the SMC cover
...
>The paragraph mentions a batron, but that the investigation of the wreck
>takes place from a gunboat. I can live with a 400-ton displacement on the
>pictured vessel...
If the open airlock shows a 2m high hatch then the ship must be about 50m across at the mid-point, and 100-130+ long; depending on the overall shape it should be at least 1500+ Dt; but still too small for a 20KT rider.
Steven Hudson
------------------------------
#1353
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:15:33 -0600 (CST)
From: Steven Bonneville
Subject: Re: That vessel on the SMC cover
Steve Hudson figured:
> If the open airlock shows a 2m high hatch then the ship must be about
> 50m across at the mid-point, and 100-130+ long; depending on the overall
> shape it should be at least 1500+ Dt; but still too small for a 20KT rider.
Hm. I don't have the picture handy, but the ship is a flattened cone with the tip of the cone at the nose, right? If the beam is about 90 meters at the tail, and the height at the tail is 65 meters, and it's 145 meters long, then I can get just over 280000 cubic meters (20000 dtons).
-- Steve Bonneville
------------------------------
#1353
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:23:41 +1300
From: Rupert Boleyn
Subject: Re: That vessel on the SMC cover
On 16 Nov 99, at 0:57, Steven Hudson wrote:
>If the open airlock shows a 2m high hatch then the ship must be about
>50m across at the mid-point, and 100-130+ long; depending on the overall
>shape it should be at least 1500+ Dt; but still too small for a 20KT
>rider.
What if it's not an airlock, but instead a boat bay door or a lock for large pieces of equipment?
Rupert Boleyn Wellington, New Zealand
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
1999 #1354
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:51:29 +1000
From: Hyphen (at work)
Subject: Re: That vessel on the SMC cover
Dear Folks -
GypsyComet said:
>The paragraph mentions a batron, but that the investigation of the wreck
>takes place from a gunboat. I can live with a 400-ton displacement on the
>pictured vessel...
>What iteration of Traveller do y'all want this thing in?
Wow! MT with deckplans, please! (although I'm sure many will want a T4 version)
Of course, you'll have to the get the TML to decide exactly how big the thing really is. Current votes are:
400t
1500t
20000t
Any more bids? Please include an explanation why, in less than 100 words... ;-)
(I've *seen* the Millenium Falcon deckplan site, all 20+ pages worth...!)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw davidjw@bigpond.net.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------
#1356
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 00:47:00 EST
GypsyComet
Subject: Re: That vessel on the SMC cover
Hyphen (at work) typed:
>Of course, you'll have to the get the TML to decide exactly how big the thing
>really is. Current votes are:
> 400t
> 1500t
> 20000t
If it's much bigger than the second figure, it doesn't get deckplans...
Based on the size of the airlock, the bridge deck is NOT two decks high like the windows suggest. The change in wedge angle amidships is all wing (see the shape of the hull at the aft firewall). A raw measurement of the ship length versus the airlock pit gives a length of 60m. A 60m Needle is 300 DTons; a 60m Wedge is 500 DTons. The hull is about four decks high at the rear (again a raw measurement), and one deck or less at the nose.
Adding perspective to the picture doesn't really change the length, since the base measurment is amidships. Perspective will lead to the nose being deeper and the tail shallower than depicted, though. As mentioned before, perspective and lighting oddities (follow the shadow line to the nose, then compare the shadow on the tailfin to the lighting on the hull) make this vessel hard to pin down completely. I'll do some sketching first...
GC
------------------------------
#1356
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:58:55 -0800
From: Steven Hudson
Subject: Re: That vessel on the SMC cover
>Hm. I don't have the picture handy, but the ship is a flattened cone with
>the tip of the cone at the nose, right? If the beam is about 90 meters at
>the tail, and the height at the tail is 65 meters, and it's 145 meters long,
>then I can get just over 280000 cubic meters (20000 dtons).
I estimate a tail height less than one-fifth the maximum width, which itself may be no more than 75m :(
OTOH, if it were a rider then where the <bleep> are the weapons?
>From: Rupert Boleyn
>Subject: Re: That vessel on the SMC cover
...
>>If the open airlock shows a 2m high hatch then the ship must be about
>>50m across at the mid-point, and 100-130+ long; depending on the overall
...
>What if it's not an airlock, but instead a boat bay door or a lock for
>large pieces of equipment?
Then the deck crew had best have rocket packs to get over the door sill :>
------------------------------
#1359
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:01:28 +1000
From: Hyphen (at work)
Subject: Re: That vessel on the SMC cover
Dear Folks -
Just had another look at the SMC, and Doug is right - is could have been done MUCH better. For example, in the Referee's Synopsis of the intro adventure, references are made that are left out of the expanded version - you really need to read both sections fully to understand what the hell is going on.
Anyway, something else that I found is that the High Guard stats for the 20,000t Battle Riders show that each have "4 Gunboats" as carried craft - but the stats for the gunboats are not given. Thus the "154th Squadron" is missing some ships. If I get some time, I'll try to re-engineer the 'Riders according to HG, just so that I can see how big the "gunboats" are. Obviously, they are NOT 20,000t worth, but probably closer to the median 1500t figure..
Alternatively, would someone else with more time on their hands (and access to the stats - I forgot to bring them in) like to give it a shot?
BTW, the 154th appears as a 6-2-8 unstreamlined squadron counter in the 5FW
boxed game (6 = Attack, 2 = Bombardment, 8 = Defence).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw davidjw@bigpond.net.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------
#1360
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 23:48:09 -0800
From: Steven Hudson
Subject: Re: That vessel on the SMC cover
>From: Hyphen (at work)
>Subject: Re: That vessel on the SMC cover
...
>Anyway, something else that I found is that the High Guard stats for the 20,000t
>Battle Riders show that each have "4 Gunboats" as carried craft - but the stats
>for the gunboats are not given. Thus the "154th Squadron" is missing some ships.
>If I get some time, I'll try to re-engineer the 'Riders according to HG, just so
>that I can see how big the "gunboats" are. Obviously, they are NOT 20,000t
>worth, but probably closer to the median 1500t figure..
Wonder-<bleep>. I get negative discretionary tonnage :(
Two bridges = 4% M-6 = 17% A:11 = 12% P-25 = 25%
for 58% (or 11,600 Dt), plus 5,000 Dt of L-Hyd, and 2,000 Dt for the
Type "N" spinal meson - so you have only 1,400 DT before allocations
for almost 800 crew at ~2+ Dt each - so forget the Frozen Watch, fuel
plant, and any boats :(
Steven Hudson
------------------------------
#1360
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 10:11:50 -0600 (CST)
From: Steven Bonneville
Subject: Re: That vessel on the SMC cover
Hyphen (at work) wrote:
> Just had another look at the SMC, and Doug is right - is could have been done
> MUCH better. For example, in the Referee's Synopsis of the intro adventure,
> references are made that are left out of the expanded version - you really
> need to read both sections fully to understand what the hell is going on.
Furthermore, the character generation section in the back is a rehash of Citizens of the Imperium, except that in my copy it's possibly one of the most typo-ridden sections I've seen in Traveller. Like, for example, I think the Bureaucrat had the Barbarian skill tables -- or perhaps it was the other way around....
> BTW, the 154th appears as a 6-2-8 unstreamlined squadron counter in the 5FW
> boxed game (6 = Attack, 2 = Bombardment, 8 = Defence).
Yeah. I dunno -- I'm not quite sure I can picture the 154th in SMC as rating 6-2-8 in the 5FW game. :)
Steve Bonneville
------------------------------
1999, unknown digest #
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 22:30:03 -0600
From: Dan Roseberry
Subject: That ship on the SMC cover [long]
Many kind TMLers wrote regarding my question on the stats for the ship on the front of the Spinward Marches Campaign sourcebook. <<8 pages worth of snippets>>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson wrote:
>Of course, you'll have to the get the TML to decide exactly
>how big the thing really is. Current votes are:
> 400t 1500t 20000t
>Any more bids? Please include an explanation why, in
> less than 100 words... ;-) < [I am using HG2]
Well, I did try to condense it ;) In order of cannones/votability:
20000t doesn't work for me; ymmv. I haven't decided on ship names; maybe you guys can work that out ;) I would not mind if you double checked the designs either.Gunboat GB-4206CF2-A40000-05000-0 MCr 385.53std. all bear 2 4 Crew=12 TL=15 Fuel=96 Ep=48 Agility=6 Scoops n fplant space left=77Fills gunboat position on the Nolikian BR. Crew has 2 ton staterooms. The 77 tons left allows boat to be configured for different roles as needed i.e. SDB role would have tons allocated to stores and a j-troop squad, assault lander role would have tons allocated to 1-2 j-troop platoons (in couches) with assault capsules or a grav tank.
Patrol boat PB-62469E2-000000-50204-0 MCr 496.13std. all bear 1 1 1 Crew=24 TL=15 Fuel=294 Ep=54 Agility=6 Scoops n fplant MJtroops=10 space left=24Crew includes jtroops (14 crew+10Jtroops). Space left allows for configuring (in this case, whether to include some kind of vehicle, lander, or assault capsules for the squad as well as stores for the ship). I went with 600tons because 1. I wanted jump capability 2. I believed 6-g was mandatory 3. I needed enough space for a Jtroop squad with assault capsules and 4. in the event that 4518th operated independently from the IN, having a PAW available would be very useful.
Pcruiser PC-A2469G2-050000-80200-0 MCr 1025.1std. all bear 1 1 3 Crew=66 TL=15 Fuel=637 Ep=117 Agility=6 Scoops n fplant Mjtroops=34 KT 35type Pinnace=1 space left=32Crew includes the 34 jtroops (32 navy+34jtroops). As above, space left allows for configuring. The KT 35type Pinnace is the 35 ton pinnace used on the Kinunir BC. While I decided that the ship was somewhere in the 400-600 ton range, the 1500t ?vote? got me to thinking about an annoyance I had with Adv.1. There are not a lot of Kinunirs, yet there would seem to be a need for a multi-role ship of that type. This should be seen as an attempt to create a K2 ship with less bells and whistles.
Dan Roseberry (plop101) Plop-Amelii Ship Builders
------------------------------
#1464
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 16:40:09 -0600
From: Dan Roseberry
Subject: That ship on the SMC cover [long-pt2]
>Can you provide a worksheet so I don't have to backwards
>engineer from the USP? Just component and tonnage is fine...
Here is #2 of the worksheets:
Patrolboat PB-62469E2-000000-50204-0 MCr 496.13std. all bear 1 1 1 Crew=24 TL=15 Fuel=294 Ep=54 Agility=6 Scoops n fplant MJtroops=10 space left=32
Hull cone Mcr 72 [600t] Mdrive 6-g Mcr 51 102t Pplant-9 Mcr 162 54t Jump-4 Mcr 120 30t Fscoops Mcr .6 --- Fplant Mcr .03 3t Fuel--Jump --- 240t Fuel--Plant --- 54t Bridge Mcr 3 20t Mod5fib comp Mcr 68 10t 2turrets beam lasers 3ea trt, 6 total Mcr 6 2t 2turrets missleracks 3ea trt, 6 total Mcr 4.5 2t 1turret partical accelerator 1per trt, 1 total Mcr 3 3t 1 turret/hardpoint empty 24 crew@2t ea Mcr 6 48t space left: --- 32t sub total: Mcr 496.13 std 600t crew: 5 gunners, 5 engnrg, 1 navigator, 1 pilot, 1 medic, 1 commander, 10 Marine Jump troops =24 total Arch fees Mcr 4.961 std class discount Mcr 396.904 std
Dan Roseberry(plop101) Plop-Amelii ship builders
------------------------------
#1467
Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 01:21:24 -0600
From: Dan Roseberry
Subject: That ship on the SMC cover [long pt3]
>Can you provide a worksheet so I don't have to backwards
>engineer from the USP? Just component and tonnage is fine...
Here is the last of the worksheets:
Pcruiser PC-A2469F2-050000-80200-0 MCr 1025.1std. all bear 1 1 3 Crew=66 TL=15 Fuel=637 Ep=117 Agility=6 Scoops n fplant Mjtroops=34 KT 35type Pinnace=1 space left=32
Hull cone Mcr 143 [1300t] Mdrive 6-g Mcr 110.5 221t Pplant-9 Mcr 351 117t Jump-4 Mcr 260 65t Fscoops Mcr 1.3 --- Fplant Mcr .03 3t Fuel--Jump --- 520t Fuel--Plant --- 117t Bridge Mcr 6.5 26t Mod6fib comp Mcr 83 14t 7turrets beam lasers 3ea trt, 21 total Mcr 21 7t 2turrets sandcasters 3ea trt, 6 total Mcr 1.5 2t 3turrets partical accelerator 1per trt, 3 total Mcr 9 9t 1 turret/hardpoint empty KK type35 Pinnace (from Kinunir, listed in Adv1. and Book 5 HG2) 35 ton pinnace Mcr 21.7 [35t incl below] small craft bay Mcr .07 35t 66 crew@2t ea Mcr 16.5 132t space left: --- 32t sub total: Mcr 1025.1std 1300t crew: 7 gunners, 4 engnrg, 4 flight, 2 service, 15 command = 32 crew 34 Marine Jump troop platoon = 34 total Arch fees Mcr 10.251 std class discount Mcr 820.08 std
Heres my class names:
Nudkii class 400t gunboat
Armangac class 600t patrol boat
Akhisandar class 1300t patrol cruiser
Dan Roseberry(plop101) Plop-Amelii ship builders
------------------------------
Personal email to Marc
Date: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 9:19 AM
From: David Jaques-Watson
Subject: RE: Traveller Update April 1, 2010 (Not An April Fools Joke).
Dear Marc -
[snipped other discussion]
Out of interest, I remember we had a debate on the TML regarding the ship on the cover of the SMC. I think we were trying to match it up to one (or even _any_) of the ships included in the scenario, and eventually decided it must have been some sort of gunboat.
I summarised it here: in my site, go to The Best of the TML --> Starships (General) --> Starships (General) - Gunboat from the SMC Cover.
Or this direct link (but without context): Starships (General) - Gunboat from the SMC Cover
What is the answer, from your point of view? Was it meant to be a ship in the game? Or more of an "atmosphere" piece?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw davidjw ..at.. pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------
Personal email from Marc
Date: Thursday, 8 April 2010 1:36 AM
From: Marc Miller
Subject: RE: Traveller Update April 1, 2010 (Not An April Fools Joke).
[snipped other discussion]
As to the ship on the cover of SMC, it came from the mind of the artist (he did both SMC and Atlas) without a lot of direction from us, so I class it as "atmosphere."
Not yet having looked at you post, I notice from the picture that:
Date: Thursday, April 08, 2010 10:28 AM
From: David Jaques-Watson
Subject: RE: Traveller Update April 1, 2010 (Not An April Fools Joke).
Dear Marc -
Thank you again. May I add your comments to the end of my page about the gunboat?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw davidjw ..at.. pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
------------------------------
Personal email from Marc
Date: Friday, 9 April 2010 2:02 AM
From: Marc Miller
Subject: RE: Traveller Update April 1, 2010 (Not An April Fools Joke).
Yes, certainly.
Marc