Hmm. Actually, I'm finding that interesting. The "100---" worlds aren't all that surprising -- surely there would be plenty of them. But it's interesting that the data, as given, suggest a peculiar culture favoring such worlds.
What if we were to interpret these profiles as indicating a culture or social class which for some reason favored small, airless worlds, strongly discouraged population sizes outside the tens of thousands, and organized itself in oligarchies? Nobles with "desert palaces" like Herod's Masada, or enclaves withdrawing into communal societies...
Before we abandoned published data, I'd be *very* interested in exploring what sorts of societies might produce these results. We might wind up with an interesting minor race.
That's an interesting approach. As Keith has already pointed out, Delphi clearly has some kind of indigenous culture, one that was different enough that it mounted a solid -- if futile -- resistance against Imperial rule in the early days of the Third Imperium.
That's definitely one way to save the UWPs we have and make it work for us. What do others think?
I really think we could have something here! In the early days of the Imperium the dominant starfaring culture (hence the mainworld status of these worlds) is our mysterious unexplained culture. What about all those other worlds in each system. They may be minor in that they are not mainworlds, but they may not be minor in terms of population, etc. In fact we could have a whole lot of "normal" worlds that would ordinarilly by now be major worlds in their own right. I could imagine a hotbed of seething resentment below the surface we are seeing. Maybe what we are about to see in Delphi is an upset to the established order within the Sector!! Maybe that's why the Sector is suddenly so interesting to the TAS! How about generating a series of paralell mainworlds for these 'anomolous' systems using the current starport grading, and gas giant, planetoid belt and other unchangeable system data as a solid given and then see what pops up. This way we get the best of both worlds, both new and old data and a ready made conflict potentially waiting to erupt! JB John B Mee Contact at firstname.lastname@example.org At 18:49:20, Oct 10, 2000, Keith Johnson (email@example.com) wrote: > Well, only thing you need is a culture that values > small density/low gravity environments. Perhaps a culture > that thrived in Asteroid belts? I like this a lot. There's at least a dozen "100---" objects in Sol system; all you need is a star with exploitable asteroids, then look for a big rockball for home base. We could also deduce that for a long period this culture had no access to gravity control or thruster plates; with delta-V at a premium, large gravity wells were unappealing. By now, even if the culture isn't genetically adapted to low gravity, all its members are physically adapted. There could be earthlike worlds in the same system, but this culture wouldn't look twice at them. Far too much gravity, and all that *weather*... They might easily, as Darryl suggests, be descended from survivors of the Ancients' wars. Or just as easily isolated human societies, descendants of rebels after the Solomani expansion. As for facing Sylea in the Pacification Wars -- an asteroid belt is just so *big* -- rather like a Ringworld with gaps. "Mainworld," I think, is not a physically given datum. Even the "most desirable" world in a system depends on what you're looking for. An asteroid civilization, with uneasy dominance over scattered garden worlds which don't necessarily have any common bond with each other... that sets up *lots* of interesting possibilities. Allan The software used to generate some of this material was possessed of . . . certain inadequacies, shall we say. Loren Wiseman 1. Start with the Atlas dot-map. 2. Add the genie data. 3. Check if the genie data appears broken. For example, make sure the star classifications have been fixed. 4. Make changes only if the data appears broken. To do this, first run the proposal past the board. Any change must have a reason, be generated correctly by the rules, and be internally consistent. Hyphen I think this is the best proposal. If I am reading the consensus properly, most people want to keep the old data, with a few tweaks here and there. I am all for this approach, since folks have already begun to develop some really neat ideas about Delphinian (is that the word?) culture. I'd just as soon keep what we've got and dispense with the occasional world rather than restarting the whole sector. I am increasingly inclined to let Anthony use his program to regenerate the offending stuck-in-the-groove UWPs as an experiment. He could then post them new data to a website and we could look over them carefully before deciding whether we prefer the new ones or the old ones. James Maliszewski
On NamesHowever, I don't really like most of the names in the sector and would really like to change some of them. Any objections to that? James Maliszewski Do you think some of the names are silly, or just the character of the names in general? I like the Terran flavor of the names, and think that might fit the character of these Delphinians. However, I'm not up on my history of this area. Can someone point me to any on-line summaries of this area through time? Could we change a name as we develop the sector (i.e. let work with hex location and if someone wants to rename a system they are working on or refering to, let them)? Bob Kovalchick Sociology-4, JOT-3 firstname.lastname@example.org That's the approach I was going to suggest: we can keep the names as placeholders until someone develops them. Then, the name can be changed if a better alternate can be suggested. I think this will resolve the headaches and ensure that there remains a good mix of names in the sector. James Maliszewski It's easy to do, IMHO, especially if you throw out all the old UWPs, which I advocate. The only things that change are Pop, Gov't, Law, TL, and Port, (though Atmo could become tainted). You can alwasy back track from a current UWP, but then you to keep track with the history of all the other worlds that might have dealings with one, to be consistent. I suggest this: Generate Size, Atmo, Hydro, Belt, Gas, Stars. Generate the rest for Pre-Contact. Analyze the area. Decide what major actors in the region might do next, i.e., which systems to develop heavily, which indigenous cultures to avoid or destroy, etc. (Optional: them progress things, or regress them for the nadir of the Long Night.) Then move forward to Contact. Then Current. Doing this, you can map the history of the sector. You don't have to detail things beyond the UWP for eras you're not concerned about. Just progress them, with perr review, to the present and see what you end up with. Steve Daniels
On HistoryMy thoughts... Lots of *100434-* worlds, too many Terran Ethnic names, etc... I actually like a blend of the ideas we're seeing. I don't have my resources handy, and I forget what the government codes represent, so forgive any error in that regard. But, to present: Delphi was ground zero during the Ancients war, lots of dead garden worlds, moreso than in other sectors. Time passes, the 1st Imperium arrives, and the Villani settle on remaining garden worlds. (Gives James a chance to add in more Villani names). Fuel depots and not much else are established in the decimated systems..thus they probably aren't named, but just given numerical designations by the Vilani. More time passes, the Interstellar Wars happen, and waves of Terrans/Solomani arrive. In addition to settling on the mostly-Vilani garden worlds, some of these Rugged Individualists note the presence of bountiful mineral resources in the astroid belts left in the decimated systems. People move in, and belter societies develop in these systems, with all the attendant (stereotypical?) idiosyncracies..strange names, limited governments, etc. More time passes, the Rule of Man collapses. The Belter colonies that survive maintain a certain measure of their technology..after all, anyone that slips below TL7 is going to die. Given the Long Night, a tradition of a combination of self reliance and mutual dependance develops, not to mention a cultural stubborness...after all, anyone who didn't want to stick it out would head to one of those cushy garden spots the Vilani are settled on. Where interstellar communications still exists, a loose trade federation develops. The Long Night ends, and the 3I's pacification campaigns reach Delphi. The reintegration of the garden worlds probably follows the normal pattern. The Belter Societies are a different problem, however. The Belters can't beat the 3I..there just plain aren't enough of them, and space colonies are just so vulnerable. On the other hand, the Belters are just so bloody spread out in their systems that the 3I is going to have a very long, frustrating time bringing in these people. A negotiated settlement brings in the majority of the Solomani-descended Belter Societies as a seperate culture, coexisting with the planet-settled Villani worlds. This allows for interesting dynamics later on, during the Solomani Rim War period, for instance. How does this work? Tracy Preas
Very nice indeed. We have a solid framework here. Some of the specifics might need to be reworked here and there, but overall this is a great outline for a really interesting sector, one that -- although a frontier -- would feel very different from the Marches. I like it a lot. James Maliszewski Yes this is great. we have to be carful: ground 0 for ancents means theres going to be an urge to put in too much ancent stuff... we must be extra weary when it comes to ancent sites.. Christopher Schroeder > Either we've got a number of systems where the garden worlds are > being ignored, or they just aren't there. "Ignored" would be a real possibility. If you (and your ancestors for n generations) had grown up in free fall or worlds the size of Mercury, a 1G gravity well would be unappealing... Months of physical therapy before you could stand up, water falling out of the sky unpredictably, unexpected air currents... Allan True, if the folks who grew up in free fall were the only ones moving into the system. We then need to figure out why the garden worlds are being ignored by those who might otherwise move there who grew up in a standard terran-style environment. I can think of a few right off...lack of resources, unattractive enironmental features that don't show up in the UWP.. Tracy Preas ... unfrendly local free-fallers..... Christopher Schroeder The Ancients seem to have ranged way beyond Known Space (this is being reinfoerced by the canon in the AR books - David Pulvers Dyson Sphere comes to mind in AR3). So we need a reson to make it ground zero.... Bad thought : Make a portion of the Reft an artifact of the Ancients. Have one of the Grandkids (or more of them) experiment on some part of the Reft, it goes horiblly wrong, anoys Grandad, which triggers the Ancients War. The reft can have a higher consentration of stellag gasses , and could even be a nebula is astronomically possable. I am thinking of someing that makes the Darrian Star Killer seem like a pop gun : say 5-10 stars exploging over a 10 year period. If we put 3 of the kiddies there, and have them totally obliterated (to avoid any chirper/droyne canon clashes), it makes an intresting nugget. It could also encourage the history of those rift world : Why are they occupied? (Answer : Gas mining) > More time passes, the Interstellar Wars happen, and waves of > Terrans/Solomani arrive. In addition to settling on the mostly-Vilani > garden worlds, some of these Rugged Individualists note the presence of > bountiful mineral resources in the astroid belts left in the decimated > systems. People move in, and belter societies develop in these systems, > with all the attendant (stereotypical?) idiosyncracies..strange names, > limited governments, etc. If we make Delphi a backwater, we can postulate that the Solomani Diaspora into Delphi was from people who valued their freedom (think rednecks and survivalists...) We could even have Delphi such a backwater that it was administrated from Massilla or Core, leaving bitter taste in the mouth of these rednecks... Darryl Adams I'm not even sure the Ancients ever visited Delphi (although if we want a minor Human race there, they must have). It definitely was on the fringe of their stomping grounds (Remember, the center lies in the Spinward Marches). Hans Rancke-Madsen James, Do you remember the Astranami(sp?), a race(well more a culture as I recall) created by James Holden? They somewhat resembled Space Gypsies, and all those 100 worlds would be perfect for them. bryan borich At 14:59:15, Oct 12, 2000, Allan Johnson (email@example.com) wrote: > In any case, those 10043x rockballs seem too good to waste -- especially > with the clustering Thomas Bont points out. (Actually, we've got room > there for *three* separate cultures...) > Or one ancestral culture, overlaid with and separated by the Imperium and then others when the old culture grew weak after the Pacification. If the Rockball culture got its start during a period of regressed grav tech, it probably started around the end of the Rule of Man or during the Long Night. It could have spread across most of the sector. It might have been part of the one or two pocket empires mentioned, or it might have been started by spacers fleeing them. The "Patrol" (yes, it needs a new name) would have been founded during the early part of the Long Night, maybe as an aid to anti-piracy as well as claim jumping. They would have, likely, been based out of one of the higher tech (today) worlds (0823, 1405 is too high for my tastes at G). It maintained a connection between the scattered worlds during the LN, solidifying the culture. The Pacification shattered the old culture, many systems succumbing to Imperial culture, eventually being listed with new 'mainworlds.' The belts in those systems may or may not still have remnants of the old culture. If they do, they are probably a source of friction (ala Basques or Kurds). Others may have *accommodated* the Imperials to an extent (Palestinians or Northern Ireland) and thus show up at 10043x. The separate, but linked, cultures are probably somewhat antagonistic, each claiming the moral high ground. Or they might help each other (Imperial Rockballers might send remittances to the other groups, like the overseas Chinese send money back to China, or Cuban Americans). Or both. Joe Webb At 16:39:35, Oct 12, 2000, Joe Webb (firstname.lastname@example.org) wrote: > Actually, there probably isn't a reason it couldn't be included even if > there isn't a bunch of 10043x main worlds. At only pop 4, this culture > could be included in any system with at least a pop of what? 6, 7? We just > need x thousand living in the belt. I'm beginning to like the idea of a Rockball culture, especially with this finesse on it. Regardless of main world UWP data, we can handwave Rockballers into any system we want. I like the idea that the Rockballers were sort of driven to it long ago, probably by Imperial expansion, and subsequently adapted to the lifestyle. Overtime, some accepted Imperium rule/domination and resettled on worlds, but a hard core of Rockheads prefers the rough and tumble life. Even Imperials might adapt this viewpoint and join the rockheads in small numbers. You get a mix of cultures within an Imperial system: - Traditional Imperials - Assimilated Rockheads - Hard Core Rockheads - Disillusioned Imperials (perhaps with Solomani tendencies). Then you've still got independent systems within the sector that may have any range of feelings with regard to Imperials and Rockheads. Throw in a couple of Hiver and K'Kree outposts in the Thumb (or whatever you want to call the N,O,P area) and you've got a really interesing sector. Steve Daniels From the Challenge adventure we know of 2 definite pocket empires in Delphi (Free Human League and the Ychean Empire). Ral Ranta (Challenge #39) covers 27 worlds in the Hinterworlds (primarily subsectors A & E), but has been in decline for centuries and used to be much larger (probably extending into Delphi P, Glimmerdrift A & B and Old Expanses D & H). From the M0 Campaign we know of 2 major pocket empires in the Pacification area, one of which probably existed in or extended down into Delphi. Another tidbit of info from "FORBIDDEN" canon is that during the First Imperium, Delphi was controlled by the Sharurshid Bureaux. Now we may not be able to mention this, but lets try not to contradict it directly. You know, the choice of names for the pocket empire (Free Human League) seems to suggest to me that there may have been some nonhuman race nearby the league. Otherwise, why use 'Human' in its title. Jimmy Simpson Xenophobia? The Free Human League wasn't that far from the Genoee. It wouldn't suprise me that an empire that was antagonistic to the Geonee would name themselves the Free Human League. Also, the Ral Ranta (who are over a sector away from those guys, so they must have had some trade routes going through Delphi) is described as human-dominated empire in Challenge #39. In Traveller, nearly every political system is are human dominated. If you specifically mention that, then most likely, it was extraordinally human controlled. Perhaps Ral Ranta supported the Free Human League (despite the distance) because of similar ideology? Keith Johnson Good point. In fact are these rockballers actually human? May that be a reason that they resisted the Imperium for so long in the early days? The name FHL is suggestive of the rockballers / Delphinians as currently envisaged, but maybe we have similar human and non human cultures? Just an idea JB John B Mee Contact at email@example.com Or perhaps "Free Human" as distinguished from "Rule of Man"? With a proto- SolSec ideology? Allan Johnson
Life in DelphiI like the Delphi Sector, which has the virtue of being (along with Antares Sector) both a border sector and very close to the Core Sector. Astrographically, most of the traffic between Capital and K'kree and Hiver space would run through there... and political criminals fleeing Capital and trying to get out of Imperial jurisdiction would run hell-for-leather in that direction also. A lot of traffic to the Solomani Confederation would go through Delphi as well, and it is close enough to the Hierate for Aslan to pass through, although with two sectors of prime patrolled Imperial space in between its unlikely any ihitai could make it there. The seat of Archduchess Margaret Tukera, economist par excellence, and the central headquarters of Tukera Lines (and its ruthless covert-ops private army, the Vemene, which the Traveller Adventure established to be a nifty villain group) has a lot of gaming potential. Note that GT, p. 68 gives an excerpt from an address by Duchess Margaret to the "500th Oracle." What might that be,a nd what part might it play in Delphi? Ralph Young
I agree that it's easy to justify including rockrats in *lots* of places -- though I do think it would be easier to visualize them if there's some sort of center to rockrat culture. The puzzle is: what sorts of governments might make sense? Describing "typical rockrat worlds" might be easier if we could pick a few salient characteristics -- small moons, nearby belts, x government. I know you find oligarchy uninteresting; but I almost wonder if these folks aren't too rambunctious for democracy. What if "oligarchy" were defined more in terms of old-line anarchism -- not the bloody war of all against all we usually envision, but something more like communes and small power structures? Or what other ideas might work? Allan Johnson
Buffalo Gal Go 'Round the Outside?At 11:17:46, Oct 10, 2000, Eamon Watters (firstname.lastname@example.org) wrote: > One thing I think the project is going to have to work on from the > start is working in not only the canon on Delphi, but also those of > the surrounding sectors, where they effect Delphi. > > I'd guess Long Night Pocket empires will need to be checked out (Or > invented). Off the top of my Head the 21 Worlds in the Old Expanses > will need plugged into the history, and Ral Ranta in the Hinterworlds > will be both Historic and Current. > > Gateway is has some importance alluded to it in Supp 5: AHL, and > Megatraveller Digest 4, I'd assume that Delphi would be one of the > main routes to Gateway, and should have an interest/impact on the > politics there. > > Talking of Surrounds, one of the things that will have to be looked > at with regards to UWPs is the Colonies. In most of the > sector/subsector write-ups I've seen a lot of dominant powers for > colonies that make no sense whatsoever, e.g TL-8 worlds dominating TL- > 12 worlds, Hi-pop worlds in thrall to world with a population in the > thousands, and other oddities. Usually the problems arise because the > designer isn't willing(or couldn't) use a suitable nearby world in > the surrounding subsectors/sectors as the colonising power. I can't > recall if the Delphi UWP's include O: comments, but if they do this > will need to be looked at. Very incomplete -- they have two O: comments, and one is unreadable while the other doesn't make much sense. My suggestions: 0129 -- try 0329 0138 -- no good candidates, 0439 is possible but port-D 0202 -- call this one a direct Scouts ownership. 0214 -- 0313 0421 -- 0422 0511 -- 0512 0515, 0516 -- 0313 0607 -- no idea 0737 -- 0739 (CORE has 0534, but I like my choice better) 0826 -- 0827 1013, 1015 -- ugh. I'd change 1015s code and make it own 1013 1036 -- no idea, perhaps its directly owned by Tukera? 1202 -- 1103 1213 -- 1015 1504 -- 1603? Odd band of high-TL low-pop worlds in here. 1801 -- no idea, unless its off-map 2433 -- no idea, perhaps direct imperial proxy 2612 -- no idea. 2733 -- no idea. 3138 -- 3037 Anthony Jackson