Joined: May 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 40 Location: where I can't stand Karma: 1 [ Exalt | Smite ]
Re: Day 1 « Reply #451 on Sept 14, 2007, 1:07am »
I was originally going to say I'd like to hear more from the lurkers, and I still would. I have a feeling they're actually intimidated by the size of the thread, so I'm not treating lurking as dangerous yet, even though I feel I should be.
A lot of the prolific posting has been merely noise. While I don't think we should stretch out the day more than normal, a long day means that everyone ought to be able to post something meaningful. If you really can't get a few posts in in the amount of time we have, ask for a sub.
Right now, there's still time to get more opinions. We also need to merely hear what you have to say, because otherwise we can't form any opinions. The high-end posters ought to slow down so that we can hear from the rest of the crew.
If you don't know what to say, point out any good points (even if you think they've been hashed out) or give us some ideas about voting.
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 82 Location: Santa Fe, NM Karma: 2 [ Exalt | Smite ]
Re: Day 1 « Reply #452 on Sept 14, 2007, 2:45am »
If dnooman were scum, there would have been no confusion that he was part of a team. However, scum doesn't mean just Mafia (what the heck is the scum called in this game?), it also means roles that aren't town aligned. I'm thinking dnooman is some type of SK or similar, which is not pro town. Any time there are killings that don't carry accountability, or when there's a much larger chance of hitting town than scum, it benefits scum.
I'm actually tempted to pull a Roosh to the extent that I wonder if there IS any way to meta-game the assigned names (as distinct from roles). For example, suppose someone is vanilla but has a role name that might or might not be a power role based on the fluff and the series--might it make sense for them to claim that name with no implied role claim, just to give the scum something to think about and possibly preserve a real power role from getting randomly iced?
The other benefit of this is that it could provide cover for REAL power roles to out their names while still keeping the scum guessing.
My criteria for strategy analysis and proposing strategies in this game are as follows--I'm expounding on this because it remains the single most fascinating part of Mafia games for me: 1) Strategy discussions are in fact a good thing for the town--many heads are better than one, and many eyes find the most problems in a plan. 2) Strategy forcing is a bad thing--in the end, it is preferable that we trust the power roles to make decisions for themselves because we don't have all the information they do. 3) Most town players are inclined to hold back too much information too long--as I said before, in Sekham this bit us on every possible square inch of ass, and we only have lasted as long as we did because of massive, boneheaded slip-ups by the scum. Therefore, anyone who asserts total secrecy is the best plan is always suspect. 4) Bad strategies are not indicative of scum play, but the more subtle flaws a plan has the more likely that its advocate(s) are scum. Especially if the plan involves loopholes or other things. I base this on the idea that anyone can brain-fart a rule or have an idea with a flaw that sits in their personal blind spot, but the scum (because they can work together) can formulate plans that are much better appearing but with subtle flaws that reveal more information to them.
Joined: May 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 40 Location: where I can't stand Karma: 1 [ Exalt | Smite ]
Re: Day 1 « Reply #455 on Sept 14, 2007, 3:11am »
(pseudo-edit on previewing: I see your recent response, storyteller, and I hope it doesn't sound like I'm singling you out below. Really I just thought it was a good point to keep in mind for myself - in the same situation I'd be likely to mount a quick defense as well.)
The recent Mad the Swine/storyteller flap made me a little suspicious of both players, if only for the noise it generated. I'm not saying any more than that since I really do hope it's put to rest. (pseudo-edit - it has, I think.)
I've derived two things from looking at it. One, general mafia rule - coming up with arguments based on past games is never a good idea. People are always going to look at things differently, and it ends up leading to confusion and accusations of lying. No problem if you have an idea of another player's style, but actually analyzing their past statements is lame. There'll be similar misunderstandings within this game, too, but the difference is everyone else can look at them and form their opinions, without any filtering (intentional or no). This ties in with my second point.
I think it is more important, so it gets enlarged:
You need more than half of the players against you before you get lynched. That's a lot of players. In other games, a player can go down with only about ~20% of the votes. Three players can start a bandwagon that goes the distance. Usually, this means that everyone has to nip things in the bud right away, before it takes off and sinks them.
With a majority vote needed, there's a lot more that needs to happen before a serious defense is needed. More than just a few people need to agree, and hopefully people understand that quick bandwagons lead to quick lynches, which are not good. A vote need broad support, which probably means it needs a decent reason. If you see someone going after you with what you consider a really weak argument, chances are the good guys think it's weak too. Even one or two votes may end up going nowhere. Possibly enough that you can ignore it, or give a very brief response. Save the serious effort for what you think is important.
Jumping too often at the slightest things will end up with 50-page threads each day. We need to scale our expectations of both what will lead to lynch, as well as when the scum will jump in, and when they'll try to stir gos se up.
That said, I really hate poor defenses. dnooman's slip didn't bother me so much before, but the bad defense (and especially a sarcastic one as he did) makes me vote. This doesn't mean, "I think you're scum" as much as "you need to do better than that". If he delivers (as promised) I may take it off.
Joined: May 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 30 Location: right here-right now Karma: 1 [ Exalt | Smite ]
Re: Day 1 « Reply #456 on Sept 14, 2007, 3:12am »
Oh my God!
I'll skip the next SMDB board game if this keeps on...
My thoughts so far:
1. storyteller has made several points which resonate heavily with my own ideas. But that's not new... in retrospect I must say that I haven't seen him as scum "in game" (whilst I'm playing). From that: 2. I can't agree with MadtheSwine's indictment of storyteller. At all. But like many other posters before me, his sudden attack on him seems like MadtheSwine being... MadtheSwine 3. roosh sounds like... roosh having a big idea. I remember well his sudden revelation during the last game on these boards that he was certain I was scum! So, my only comment on his big idea is: if you have another big idea either publish it immediately or don't say anything at all about it. Please. 4. For some reason we always overestimate the influence of scum on the proceedings. Especially during the first couple of Days. Remember: they are a minority (usually, at least). Unknown stuff like vampires/Reavers would cause me concern, but... well... it's unknown stuff, isn't it?
By the way, I'm not a big connoisseur of Firefly either. The only thing I have watched so far is the Serenity movie. But I liked it
M3 - Monk- Won the game (cast the winning vote) Hispanola - Vanilla Crew - Alive at the end (win) Crazyville - Doctor- Alive at the end (win) Cult of Sekham - Crusader - Killed by Cult... after I killed a Monk(loss--didn't kill at least one Unbeliever/Cult...because I'm stupid)/Vanilla townie (win). Firefly - In space no one can hear you role-claim!
I'm actually tempted to pull a Roosh to the extent that I wonder if there IS any way to meta-game the assigned names (as distinct from roles). For example, suppose someone is vanilla but has a role name that might or might not be a power role based on the fluff and the series--might it make sense for them to claim that name with no implied role claim, just to give the scum something to think about and possibly preserve a real power role from getting randomly iced?
The other benefit of this is that it could provide cover for REAL power roles to out their names while still keeping the scum guessing.
4) Bad strategies are not indicative of scum play, but the more subtle flaws a plan has the more likely that its advocate(s) are scum. Especially if the plan involves loopholes or other things. I base this on the idea that anyone can brain-fart a rule or have an idea with a flaw that sits in their personal blind spot, but the scum (because they can work together) can formulate plans that are much better appearing but with subtle flaws that reveal more information to them.
So, comments?
I totally agree with this. I think it's an evolution of my own ideas, and this is the sort of thing I was hoping to get happening from my own postings. -Thank you for your comments, Z. I've very proSharing information. I know my initial post vs. BlaM was a bit rough, and it did hurt me. Since then I have been reforming my ideas though. I was initially using my ideas just as a way not to reveal roles, but to see if we could get slip ups (like Dnooman's may have been), since then I've seen the problems with it, but I like what you have stated. I personally would LOVE to give the scum WIFOM every night rather than just being forced to drink it as a townie. But I also like your 4th comment (which i kept up there). But that's because I feel it applies to me.
I dislike your reasonings for voting for me (especially with this recent post just bettering my ideas), but i'm glad you have commented at least. I'll take votes on me if they make some sense, but I don't want crap lurker votes.
This is going to now leave my vote somewhere 'twixt Dnooman, and MadtheSwine, but I want both of them to just explain themselves. Right now, I'm more against Dnoo, and just waiting to see what the guay Mad's got going on in his head.
** Extra Notes: Also, I tend to post in bursts because last game I used to have these HUGE long posts w/ several ideas in them, and people (Mhaye or BlaM?) pointed out that they wouldn't read them just because it was so long, and they'd rather I break up the information into smaller chunks. That's why i double/triple post alot to try to use this new technique of splitting up my thoughts, and trying to label them (vs. a post techique of just doing this)
*** Extra Extra Note: And to the one who asked about what's scum called. Just read your PM. If it's not in there. Then... Well.
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....
Oh what the guay. I'll commit my vote, and wait for Mad to show up and explain. Because I feel like he's also being Mad, and if he was mafia, he wouldn't be so foolish as to do this on Day 1.
So:[ color=Blue] Vote Dnooman. [/color] Why? Well, I did point out his Post. So I should take responsibility for it, no?
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....
(pseudo-edit on previewing: I see your recent response, storyteller, and I hope it doesn't sound like I'm singling you out below. Really I just thought it was a good point to keep in mind for myself - in the same situation I'd be likely to mount a quick defense as well.)
No worries. Your point is a good one. Nothing good can possibly come of me and Mad shouting at one another all Day.
For the moment, I am suspicious of Mad, less so of Roosh, and need to take a new look at dnooman. No one else has made a strong impression in any direction just yet. Now that I'm on the record, I'll let others speak for a while.
But I do think we should establish a deadline for our Day to end, and stick to it. A simple way around the "we need 15 votes" - I mean, very simple, is to agree as a town to treat, say, Monday at 3:00 PST as the "end of the Day." Whoever is leading the vote at that point is our target. Then, everyone else just votes for that person to cap things off. Players would be "held responsible" for their votes leading up to the artificial deadline, but not for the purely functional votes designed to top off the chosen candidate.
This allows for a natural voting process resembling the voting process of previous games. Thoughts?
For now, I'm just going to sit back and watch it unfold. I think Story is getting the best of the argument, but I'm trying to piece out motivations for why an argument this silly is even taking place to begin with. Until I figure that out, I am having a hard time thinking that this little side drama should influence my actions in any way. Ain't getting involved in something I don't understand.
OK, that's fair, but I need to ask - what's so difficult to dong ma? Piecing out motivations is all well and good, but it leads you down an impossible road, especially this early in the game. To me, the situation is simple:
1. MadtheSwine made an accusation against me. 2. The accusation is false. 3. MadtheSwine is either lying, or being careless with his votes. 4. Lying, particularly when one is lying in order to justify casting a vote for someone, is scummy. Carelessly voting for someone without checking to make sure your reason actually happened is only marginally less scummy. Ergo - 5. MadtheSwine is behaving in a scummy fashion, whether or not he is actually scum.
That is my position in a nutshell. Where does it become hard to dong ma?
I guess I'm trying to figure out why Mad did it in the first place. I get your reaction, and I understand the points you're making, but I'm not sure why this had to happen at all. The initial argument is so nonsensical that there's no point trying to delve too deeply into it until I figure out why it ever had to be brought up.
I'm dealing with some pretty bad vertigo and brain zaps (yay medication withdrawal!) so if you don't understand what I'm saying here, just let me know and I'll try to articulate it better. I'm probably doing a piss poor job of it right now.
Joined: May 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 21 Location: MH,NJ,USA Karma: 4 [ Exalt | Smite ]
Re: Day 1 « Reply #463 on Sept 14, 2007, 3:52am »
Ok, meeting in five minutes, so a few quick thoughts from the last 100 posts:
--The list of heavy posters/middle posters/lurkers: Let's remember the pseudo-random theory...we can be 95% certain that there is at least one scum in each of those groups.
--I'm beginning to believe Roosh, wonder what Mad is on, and think dnooman may be getting railroaded.
--The voting chart now has current vote totals next to each player's name. Should be even more helpful down the road, I think.
M1 - vanilla townie - win M3 - vanilla townie - win M4 - subbed-out scum - loss (but I don't count this one, because I only played for 2 days. ) M5 - monk townie - win (by the skin of my teeth){=}http://s2.images.proboards.com/wink.gif{/=}
But I do think we should establish a deadline for our Day to end, and stick to it. A simple way around the "we need 15 votes" - I mean, very simple, is to agree as a town to treat, say, Monday at 3:00 PST as the "end of the Day." Whoever is leading the vote at that point is our target. Then, everyone else just votes for that person to cap things off. Players would be "held responsible" for their votes leading up to the artificial deadline, but not for the purely functional votes designed to top off the chosen candidate.
This allows for a natural voting process resembling the voting process of previous games. Thoughts?
Like I've said before, I think that's a pretty good way to handle the voting. I might, however, add an additional period (48 hours?) if the votes at that point are pretty evenly divided to decide which of the vote leaders should be lynched.
M3 - Monk- Won the game (cast the winning vote) Hispanola - Vanilla Crew - Alive at the end (win) Crazyville - Doctor- Alive at the end (win) Cult of Sekham - Crusader - Killed by Cult... after I killed a Monk(loss--didn't kill at least one Unbeliever/Cult...because I'm stupid)/Vanilla townie (win). Firefly - In space no one can hear you role-claim!
I've been defending myself for quite sometime, and I'm happy with my defense. If anyone wants more, just ask me, and I'll ALWAYS be glad to post more and try to clear up questions.
Or if you want me to role claim or something such to that effect, I'd rather not, but i can do that at anytime I'm at the computer as well (preferably at night though, as I'm usually online 11:30am-1:30am EASTERN ST.
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....
We only have 19 people voting, when we need 15 for a majority. Yikes. I guess there's still plenty of time, though.
Here's what I'm thinking about what provoked the Mad/Story tangent. At the time that Mad started it, we had a clear vote leader, and that was Roosh, with 7 votes to dnooman's 4. Maybe Mad was trying to get more of a plurality going by diverting some Roosh voters onto him? I know it worked with Story, who was voting for Roosh until Mad came up with his meta-game argument.
I'm also thinking crazy thoughts, like maybe there's a role in the game that gets some powers if it gets investigated at Night, and maybe that's what Mad is doing. This setup is messing with my head!
We only have 19 people voting, when we need 15 for a majority. Yikes. I guess there's still plenty of time, though.
Here's what I'm thinking about what provoked the Mad/Story tangent. At the time that Mad started it, we had a clear vote leader, and that was Roosh, with 7 votes to dnooman's 4. Maybe Mad was trying to get more of a plurality going by diverting some Roosh voters onto him? I know it worked with Story, who was voting for Roosh until Mad came up with his meta-game argument.
I'm also thinking crazy thoughts, like maybe there's a role in the game that gets some powers if it gets investigated at Night, and maybe that's what Mad is doing. This setup is messing with my head!
I think you may be onto something with the "Distraction" theory. I think that is exactly what it is...but I'm not sure if the distraction was intended to help Roosh or Dnooman. I'm going to leave my vote where it is for now, but MadTheSwine isn't looking so townie right now.
M2 - Beat Cop - Killed by the Mafia (loss) Hispanola - Vanilla Crew - Alive at the end (win). Crazyville - Therapist - Killed by the Psychos and my Lover Kat took her own life - (win). Cult of Sekham - Alchemist - Blowed up by the Cult - (win). Firefly - Space Monkey! (see avatar) - Giving the airlocks a wide berth!{=}http://s2.images.proboards.com/kiss.gif{/=}
This pings my meter sorta heavy. Based on what my role PM said, I know the name of the bad guys/scum in this game. Why don't you? Makes me think that you are faking that you don't know or you are of a different group than I. Either way, I'm finding it suddenly hard to believe it could be Town.
I'm pretty sure the baddies are called the Alliance. I've never seen an episode either so you can't use the "but I've never seen an episode" excuse with me.
So the question remains, how did you not know the name of the scum group?
Anyway, Unvote Zuma as there's obviously not a very good chance he'll have a majority toDay and I'm not going to waste a vote on a one off when so much is at stake for a lynch.
Not recasting right now, though, because I don't like either of the top voters for scum.
This pings my meter sorta heavy. Based on what my role PM said, I know the name of the bad guys/scum in this game. Why don't you? Makes me think that you are faking that you don't know or you are of a different group than I. Either way, I'm finding it suddenly hard to believe it could be Town.
I'm pretty sure the baddies are called the Alliance. I've never seen an episode either so you can't use the "but I've never seen an episode" excuse with me.
So the question remains, how did you not know the name of the scum group?
I agree, that's a pretty telling comment. That having been said, it could also be due to a cursory glance at the role PM combined with an unfamiliarity with the show. The only reason I remember that scum = Alliance is because I kept thinking about WoW, where I played Horde, and thought it was funny that the Alliance is the bad guys. Otherwise, I may have forgotten that point.
Nonetheless, I doubt that's the case, and combined with the earlier vote on you for annoyance reasons, I think you may be on to something. FOS Pygmyrugger.
I think I'm done with this. I feel like I'm in bizarro-Mafia-land
Cry me a river, build me a bridge, and get the fuck over it. You've done the exact same thing in other games. It seems to be your opening gambit, to act the persecuted reasonable man amongst a sea of irrational other players. It's old, let it go.
On the general topic of using observations from other games in current games, I think it's fine. Firstly because there's no way to stop it. An impression is an impression and you're not going to be able to wipe that from game to game. Whenever I sit down with my playgroup to play Magic I know gorram well I'm a target and they'll be ganging up on me. It's just something we have to deal with, reps follow players. Secondly, because it works! For example, storyteller0910 works on formulating an overall strategy as soon as possible during each game, and starts acting on it. In M2 his stated strategy was to make himself unlynchable because he couldn't be night-killed. In M5 his stated strategy was to distance himself from his fellow monks as early as possible, even if it meant making up gos se and exaggerating drama to do so. There is simply no way I'm going to mind-wipe myself to forget what I've learned about his playstyle. Mad the Swine probably feels the same. I'm uncertain about Mad the Swine's current accusation, but the general principle is sound.
On the topic of lurkers. I'm suspicious of lurkers on general principle, but someone who posts once or twice a day(fifteen to twenty posts over the course of the first Day) can't really be considered a lurker. Perhaps they are getting lost in the noise generated by more prolific posters, but that's hardly their fault. A search for their posts should turn up enough to give someone a read on them.
I'm not seeing the huge scumminess in dnooman's night post that others are, but since we have to reach a majority on someone, and I have no particular reason to think him/her town, I'd go along with it if that's where the wind is blowing.
Personal suspicions still rest with Idle Thoughts for the various amounts of drama he's brought to the table thus far. The guy has had to have his nonsense reigned in by the mods twice already. Firstly over the majority rule thing and secondly over the resources used when creating the game ruleset. He's the epitome of "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing" at the moment, and that's a scum tell to me.
[i]Blue Sun and the Alliance government appear to be up to their old tricks again. <snip>
Yes, I know Alliance are the bad guys. However, with all this talk of there possibly being multiple scum factions that we don't know about, I entertained the idea that Blue Sun might be the other one. So, if somebody were to have answered, "Blue Sun" are the bad guys, we might have found a member of the second group.
I think I'm done with this. I feel like I'm in bizarro-Mafia-land
Cry me a river, build me a bridge, and get the fuck over it. You've done the exact same thing in other games. It seems to be your opening gambit, to act the persecuted reasonable man amongst a sea of irrational other players. It's old, let it go.
Blow me, you colossal (and spectacularly useless, in every game I've yet to see you play) hwoon dahn.
Personal suspicions still rest with Idle Thoughts for the various amounts of drama he's brought to the table thus far. The guy has had to have his nonsense reigned in by the mods twice already. Firstly over the majority rule thing and secondly over the resources used when creating the game ruleset. He's the epitome of "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing" at the moment, and that's a scum tell to me.
Enjoy, Steven
Is there a reason why you didn't reply to my personal rebuttal to that earlier? I did reply back, you know.
But just in case you didn't see it, here it is again.
I didn't understand a rule. I asked for clarification. It was a general rule, not game mechanics (as NAF has already decreed upon).
So.............where is all this suspicion coming from? What, it's "scummy" to ask for clarifcation on rules?
I think you're just trying to find a reason to vote for people later on. I know you. You're a good player at this. I can't imagine you'd use a reason as weak as you're using right now if you were really town. You're a smarter and better player than that.