Oh, Jayne is good. The Operative is bad. You see.... because Jayne is part of the CREW and the Operative is an agent of the ALLIANCE. Yeah, I know both characters have some depth, but let's be real, here.
You're right. It's late, I'm tired, and I've been at work for 18 hours. (yeah, I'm playing Mafia on company time, so lynch me!) See you folks tomorrow.
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Re: Day 1 « Reply #753 on Sept 15, 2007, 4:43pm »
So, a brief recap of the dnooman/roosh situation.
Roosh has a power role with a win condition of kill all Alliance without realising that this means the Alignment Alliance and not an Alliance role with Alignment Crew.
From this he formulates his plan #1
From dnooman's slip overnight it is considered he is scum. His role claim disproves Roosh plan #1 but causes issues with Roosh's kill condition.
He is also the first instance of someone mentioning a PM that was sent out to vanilla townies clarifying the situation.
This confuses Roosh who still thinks that his kill condition is all Alliance.
The upshot is that the kill conditions were not explained clearly enough and that the scum are Aligned Alliance and the town is aligned Crew.
A 2nd Scum/Reaver faction: Entirely possible - however they are still scum, so if we lynch someone who is neither Crew or Alliance, then we can worry about it.
Frankly AFAIAC: dnooman is town. Anyone else claiming receipt of the PM from this point on, should be treated with suspicion.
Roosh: Until someone counterclaims - he may as well be a minor Crew power role.
Roosh's plan makes perfect sense if considered in this light. Just not much sense to anyone who is an alliance player with Crew alignment.
Next: MadtheSwine, mtgman and storyteller.
I would like to lynch the lot of them. 2 meta-game attacks (previous game & ad-hominem) out of the blue. One of them would be understandable, but both is pushing it too far.
The problem is that if we lynch one of them we give creedence to the other two who can claim townie points for being attacked/ attacking like this.
I don't like loose ends and it just seems too contrived for their not to be scum involvement.
So I am going to go with the third person on my scum list:
MadTheSwine: Your recollection and my reading of Mafia 6, do not add up.
vote MadTheSwine
and at this rate, we are going to have multiple role claims by the end of the first day.
Name claims* would be preferred. CatinaSuit. Not Role Claims, that could be disastrous for town. Mine i don't feel is as big of a deal, and plus, maybe I'm keeping something extra hidden but that's not for Townies to worry about. Scum can WIFOM all they want.
*Which is what I assumed you meant, but I know a few others I sticklers on that issue. *coughs BlaM coughs* Freudian slips.... That and the objective/Obsessive/Operative that's the word slip up, that to me was just the oddest and silliest of the accusations.
Until i saw the "You don't live in a town, therefore you're not a Townie." arguement of SinJin..... That one wins for best Worst accusation vs. me.
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....
1) It seems like people want to be able to catch up after the weekend, so sometime Monday evening seems fair.
3) I think I speak for a majority ( ) when I say that we're not accepting it whole cloth. After a few scum die and a few citizens are revealed, we'll have a better understanding of how the charachters were named. We're not saying, "Oh, Roosh is so and so, she (is it really she ) must be a good guy!", we're saying, we now know who Roosh is, so we'll be able to come back to it later when the need arises. You've been called out already for insisting that we still lynch Roosh. Why are you still doing it?[/quote]
Ok by unvoting him I thought I was taking it out of the program. I get the message. Sometimes you have to hit me over the head thanks.
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Re: Day 1 « Reply #758 on Sept 15, 2007, 4:55pm »
All caught up.
I'm leveling a FOS at Story, Mtg, and Mad.
25% for the meta-gaming and acting like punks (yes, I'm aware that this is all water under the bridge now, but I'm a little late with focusing my full attention on this particular game, and this is my idea "Tough Love" )
75% because of some lessons learned in M5. I argue that this is not a hypocritical use of my own meta-gaming. Just hear me out.
By glossing over Diggit, Kyrie, and Idle's 3-way conflict just prior to Monkgate, I was oblivious to manipulations of 2 scum (Kyrie/Idle) on one townie (Diggit). It wasn't until I had the luxury of fully assuming that Kyrie was scum that I picked up on it.
Idle's little emotional show, with his sidekick zuma (and more importantly some apparent town responses to it, at least at first) also left me with some heightened perception of the role that drama can play for scum.
I could be accused of the "unforgivable" variety of meta-gaming if my M5 anecdotes were about Mad, Story, or Mtg. But they aren't. I bring with me general observations about half-staged conflicts and spectacular whiny temper tantrums.
So that, my friends, is the best I have to give you at this point, on page 26(?) of this Day 1.
M1 - vanilla townie - win M3 - vanilla townie - win M4 - subbed-out scum - loss (but I don't count this one, because I only played for 2 days. ) M5 - monk townie - win (by the skin of my teeth){=}http://s2.images.proboards.com/wink.gif{/=}
Umm... I thought the board was set up so guests couldn't post???
Nope. S'never been that way. But I do wonder who "Dave" is.
Dave is me.
There seems to be two profiles for this board as far as Firefox goes, on my account. One has my username, the other has a couple of symbols as the login. I haven't figured out how to dump the junk login yet. Were I not mentally handicapped, things might go more smoothly.
<snip> SO if we could re-focus on three points I would be very happy. <snip> 3) The name claim theory for outing scum (not role claim) entirely produced out of the head of Roosh that many people seem to be accepting full cloth.
<snip> Ok by unvoting him I thought I was taking it out of the program. I get the message. Sometimes you have to hit me over the head thanks.
sinjin, in one post, you're saying we should focus on Roosh's theory, or, more accurately, its rebuttle. In another, you're saying that by removing your vote it means that you've "taken it out of the program". I don't understand.
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Re: Day 1 « Reply #761 on Sept 15, 2007, 7:14pm »
Sinjin, this has already been pointed out, but the point isn't necessarily whether or not Inara is a good guy in the game (that remains to be seen), but that Roosh is an uncontested claimed power role (albeit a minor one), and we really shouldn't lynch those on Day One.
BTW, in regards to Inara's alignment, isn't she technically a citizen of the Alliance, being a licensed Courtesan and all? Just something to keep in mind in the future.
Roosh, the way you quoted me in partial and responded to me seems to suggest you didn't read my post very thoroughly. I told you why I was still suspicious of you: 1) Your behavior both before and after claiming, 2) your claimed power, and 3) the current lack of a guarentee that Inara is an in-game good guy.
Also, you seemed to have completely glossed over the "FOR NOW" caveat I added to my feeling of dnooman's alignment. Obviously if something else comes up that makes dnooman more suspicious, I will address it then. But he gets a bigger benefit of the doubt because I made a similarly shiny post in the Psychopath game, and he is partially mod-confirmed because he is the first person to have claimed his particular role, alignment, and win condition.
<snip> SO if we could re-focus on three points I would be very happy. <snip> 3) The name claim theory for outing scum (not role claim) entirely produced out of the head of Roosh that many people seem to be accepting full cloth.
<snip> Ok by unvoting him I thought I was taking it out of the program. I get the message. Sometimes you have to hit me over the head thanks.
sinjin, in one post, you're saying we should focus on Roosh's theory, or, more accurately, its rebuttle. In another, you're saying that by removing your vote it means that you've "taken it out of the program". I don't understand.
I'm trying to seperate the issue of lynch Roosh he's a bad guy from the issue of buying into his name-claim/counter-claim plan. My unvote was taking the lynch Roosh issue off the table. That doesn't mean I have to accept the veracity of the name-claim outing the bad guys plan.
Re: Day 1 « Reply #763 on Sept 15, 2007, 10:15pm »
Good Lord. I check the game right before I go to sleep, then I wake up early and there are two and a half new pages!
I'd like to see a vote count, please.
This is getting insane. I think sleeping on it a night has put me in the position of trusting Roosh, at least for now. In the end, when I don't really have knowledge of the show to fall back on, I'll probably end up following those who do. And they all say that Roosh's character is uniformly good. I'd imagine if there are some "good guys" on the Alliance side, it would be characters who have some ambiguity to them. Someone correct me if this premise is not possible, because I'm building it based on incomplete knowledge of the 'verse.
I guess for now I'll revote MadTheSwine. I'm a bit more uncomfortable now it appears like he came in, smeared story, got his ass handed to him, and vanished. And I'm going to remember this later if both story and I are in the endgame, because I think this smearing gave story a lot of townie cred that he doesn't quite deserve. I'm not saying that this is a planned scumgambit right now, but I am saying that later on if we're both alive, I'm going to go back through this monster of a game assuming that as a premise and see if it gets me anywhere.
If it wasn't for the last minute, nothing would ever get done.
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Re: Day 1 « Reply #764 on Sept 15, 2007, 11:22pm »
I've just caught up with the overnight posts. Reading them has crystallised a half-formed impression.
I think there is a distinction that needs to be drawn that not everyone has fully managed yet. The difference 'twixt name claiming and role claiming.
What Roosh proposed, and what he has carried out, is a name claim. He has asserted that he has the character Inara.
Great, marvelous. What does that tell me?
Nothing. Absolutely zilch.
Many people have asserted that Inara would not be anything other than good-guy aligned. I wouldn't know. I remember the character featured heavily in The Train Job, and that if I recall the episode right, put her neck on the line a couple of times to save Mal (was it him?) in tight situations with Alliance law enforcement. But as a paid companion, would she be subject to blackmail or other pressure? Say though relatives on other worlds? I don't know. However, since there are ways that Inara might be brought to act in line with bad-guy aims, you can't rule out the possibility that Inara (or anyone else) might be scum, or be forced to aid scum.
All Roosh's claim does is tell me the name. He has not role-claimed - that is, told us anything about alignment and/or powers. He's implied by name-claiming that he's crew-aligned. Unless he has said something in one of his posts. If he has, I missed it.
Now, no-one in this game will claim to be whatever the scum alignment is, so saying "yes I'm crew-aligned" passes without saying. But in this sort of game, name-claiming a major role enables the claimant to hide behind the name a little.
I did wonder whether NAFKat might have given everyone minor character role names. I doubt it because the crew are the centre of the Firefly show, and leaving them out would rob the game of a lot of flavour. But it is theoretically possible.
By contrast, dnooman has asserted that he is a crew-aligned Alliance citizen. His claim therefore has slightly more content than Rooshes claim.
Now I'm reading the whole thread a second time but, iirc, have got no further than post 100 or so. So it'll be a while before I have more substantive comment.
Quantities will always be expressed in the least convenient set of units available. Velocity, for example, might best be expressed in furlongs per fortnight.{=}http://s2.images.proboards.com/cool.gif{/=}
Re: Day 1 « Reply #765 on Sept 15, 2007, 11:49pm »
Quote:
All Roosh's claim does is tell me the name. He has not role-claimed - that is, told us anything about alignment and/or powers. He's implied by name-claiming that he's crew-aligned. Unless he has said something in one of his posts. If he has, I missed it.
mhaye, I think you missed something key. Roosh has claimed that if he is nightkilled, he has a 50% chance of taking down whoever it is that kills him. Seeing as scum can't be nightkilled (I'd assume), that means that his role is either a maverick role or town-aligned. And since Roosh was the first to point out that dnooman's "every man for himself" role seemed different than his role (and he did that before any of this came up), I'd lean toward town-aligned. It would be a very elaborate scheme to come up with if he were scum. Not saying impossible, just saying I'm leaning toward accepting what he's telling us as true.
All Roosh's claim does is tell me the name. He has not role-claimed - that is, told us anything about alignment and/or powers. He's implied by name-claiming that he's crew-aligned. Unless he has said something in one of his posts. If he has, I missed it.
mhaye, I think you missed something key. Roosh has claimed that if he is nightkilled, he has a 50% chance of taking down whoever it is that kills him. Seeing as scum can't be nightkilled (I'd assume), that means that his role is either a maverick role or town-aligned.
Then it got drowned in the volume of his posts. I know Roosh has almost driven me to distraction once (Asylum Lane Day 2 - it was luck that my vote was for one of the scumballs). Actually, it does sound familiar. I'll watch out for it.
However, I'm not at all sure that the assumption you made there has any basis. Suppose that there are multiple independent scum factions? And that the win condition of the factions reads "You win when you comprise at least one-half the remaining players and all other non-Crew factions are eliminated?" You might indeed have a scum being nightkilled then.
NB This is in no way, shape or form an assertion that I have such a role. Neither am I asserting that there are multiple scum factions - just that there might be.
Quote:
And since Roosh was the first to point out that dnooman's "every man for himself" role seemed different than his role (and he did that before any of this came up), I'd lean toward town-aligned. It would be a very elaborate scheme to come up with if he were scum. Not saying impossible, just saying I'm leaning toward accepting what he's telling us as true.
I'll bear these thoughts in mind as I reread. Thanks
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mhaye, I think you missed something key. Roosh has claimed that if he is nightkilled, he has a 50% chance of taking down whoever it is that kills him. Seeing as scum can't be nightkilled (I'd assume), that means that his role is either a maverick role or town-aligned.
Then it got drowned in the volume of his posts. I know Roosh has almost driven me to distraction once (Asylum Lane Day 2 - it was luck that my vote was for one of the scumballs). Actually, it does sound familiar. I'll watch out for it.
However, I'm not at all sure that the assumption you made there has any basis. Suppose that there are multiple independent scum factions? And that the win condition of the factions reads "You win when you comprise at least one-half the remaining players and all other non-Crew factions are eliminated?" You might indeed have a scum being nightkilled then.
NB This is in no way, shape or form an assertion that I have such a role. Neither am I asserting that there are multiple scum factions - just that there might be.
Quote:
And since Roosh was the first to point out that dnooman's "every man for himself" role seemed different than his role (and he did that before any of this came up), I'd lean toward town-aligned. It would be a very elaborate scheme to come up with if he were scum. Not saying impossible, just saying I'm leaning toward accepting what he's telling us as true.
I'll bear these thoughts in mind as I reread. Thanks
This first day is turning out to be harder than I expected. I suppose what you've said about the two scum factions makes perfect sense. I guess I've just been couching things in Crew vs. Alliance, and not assuming anything about another scum group until I get definite proof that one exists. I KNOW that there's one scum group, the Alliance. I can't play this game assuming facts that aren't yet in evidence (and may never be). Right now, I'll assume Roosh is telling the truth about being crew-aligned, but if another scum group pops up, I may re-evaluate that.
FoS: on all who post too much, for muddying the waters. And I am only half-joking.
Maybe I sound peeved, but I just read through 12+ pages, after only being away for one day. That does quite kill the motivation.
**
As for the Role/Name-claims. That's much too soon. We're hardly halfway through Day 1, and the act of claiming strikes me as highly suspicious. That's not to say that people are forbidden from ever claiming a role or name (since this is FF, and names carry more weight than roles), but it does not mean much in a closed set-up on Day 1, as the posts that contest dnooman's and Roosh's claiming show.
Also Roosh's hanging his New and Improved Plan in front of us which he can't tell us about, honest. Some day, one day. Jam every other day, that is. I don't like it. When you have something, tell us about it right then and there. Don't dangle it in front of us, like a carrot on a stick.
If it wasn't for the last minute, nothing would ever get done.
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Re: Day 1 « Reply #772 on Sept 16, 2007, 1:28am »
Drainbead, we do know, because NAF said so, that this game has an additional killing role. (Sign-up thread reply 136).
This might be a serial killer type role or a group. In any case, the extra killing role may well be a night killing role not attached to the main scum.
So I do think there is enough evidence of at least two night-killing roles to make it something we need to consider. And one of the things that dragged M5 out a bit was that the two solo killers (DiggitCamara1 and Pasta / amrussell were either taken out before racking up much of a body-count. Thus I do think there are two groups.
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Thanks for pointing that post out, because I missed it. I had been guessing there would probably be more than one night kill toNight, but didn't want to assume anything until I saw it in front of me. Now I can be pretty much certain that there is more than one potential kill tonight.
What that tells me about Roosh? I'm not sure. Gonna have to re-read. I was leaning toward him being scummy before, then figured I'd believe him because his role description sounds town-aligned. Now that I know there's the potential that he could be scum or a vig/SK and still be night-killed, I'm not sure. I know Roosh was pretty certain early on in the game that there was a vig/SK or another killing group, but unlike you, could not point to a particular post that gave rise to his certainty. I think re-reading that early part may allow me to make more sense of that.
Thank goodness the Buckeyes don't play until later on today.
And mods I can't read Roosh's last post, second to last post, who knows which post by now, can you recode it?
*blinks* To tell you the truth, I can't read it either. I'll try again after I get some sleep.
Okay, I believe that I've fixed reply#716, which is the post that was messing with my head. If you were referring to a different post, let me know, sinjin.
Okay. So I was wrong about Roosh not having any actual knowledge of a 2nd killing group before making the assumption.
Roosh, post #111:
Quote:
See, here's the thing BlaM. There are multiple killing groups (The Mods said if there was 28 peep, there would be an additional killing group, so I'm assuming a min. of 2 killers at night).
Later on, in post #145, he makes the assumption that there's more than just a scumgroup and a Vig. He says he has no evidence for that--it's just his opinion. But that, I suppose, is tangential to the reason I was looking back to find this info, because all I was wondering is whether or not Roosh had any separate, supportable reason for assuming there would be more than one nightkiller, and he does.
The question then becomes...does Roosh having good knowledge of another nightkilling group or role make his eventual role-claim more or less likely to be true? Right now, my head is swimming and I'm hungry and probably not quite up to the task of analyzing this. I'm going to go grab a grilled cheese sammich or something and then sit down and play through both scenarios in my head.
Quantities will always be expressed in the least convenient set of units available. Velocity, for example, might best be expressed in furlongs per fortnight.{=}http://s2.images.proboards.com/cool.gif{/=}