Again with the hammering. And in one breath excusing the last or next to last voter and in the other accusing "anybody that accidentally hammers a person at this point either hasn't been reading or is scum, and will be treated as such by me"
So it appears its a lose lose proposition for the 14th and 15th voters. And this leads us to the final solution of never voting anybody out. Which equals SCUM WINS.
I didn't mean to say that the final voter will always be scummy to me. I meant that, if there are 14 votes on somebody, and everybody is posting in the thread saying "alright, nobody else vote until we're sure this is the guy we want to lynch" and then like 2 hours later, somebody casts the 15th vote and then goes "dearie me, lookie what I just did! oopsie, I'm sorry guys!" THAT looks extraordinarily scummy to me.
But if everybody agrees "yeah, this is the most scummy person, let's lynch 'em" then the last votes are a-ok by me. Of course, I'm not expecting to have complete agreement overall, there's bound to be some sort of dissenting opinion.
Okay. I had been promising my ideas. And here they are, so gather around children, and here's the way we can survive this game, and pull out a win for the town (I feel like i'm the dude in Scream explaining the rules of the Game now).
The Main Point: Why is The Closed Setting Better for Town Than Scum? Some people started to get at this, CatinASuit was one of them.
I was going to say that the reason a closed setup helps the town more is that there is a lot more ambiguity about the roles and what they are capable of.
The scum have been reluctant in other games to deal with someone who they do not know about and are unsure of the consequences of dealing with them.
An open setup is more beneficial for vanilla townies as they know what the situation they are playing for.
A closed setup will help town power roles as they can hide what they are truly capable of from the Scum.
But everyone else sort of ignored this question.
So I'll explain it: Actually, Cat, it's the reverse. The Closed set-up IS good for our power roles to hide among, yes. This will create problems for the Scum to figure out what they're up against. But in the same form, we don't know what WE'RE up against in terms of scum.
But that's all for Power Roles and Scum. I said this game benefits TOWN. And there's a Reason for that. I had to PM the hosts about my ideas (esp. as its kind of a "loophole" but I got a reply saying it's legit. So i'm down with explaining it to you guys). POINT # 1[ This is NOT just a Closed game. It's a CLOSED THEME game. ---Ignorant Bob: "What does That mean? Huh?" This game has an extra layer to it. We all received PMs explaining two things actually: our Roles and our FLAVOR. We're not allowed to quote our flavor. But we can explain our flavor. Just... be smart about it. Basically it's this: THERE ARE NO VANILLA TOWNIES IN THE GAME. Scum didn't know that. Because they didn't GET a vanilla Townie PM. --There ARE townies. And there is a "Town". However, No one got pm'ed the Role "Vanilla town" and if anyone claims that. LYNCH THEM ON THE SPOT. Why? Because this is a THEMED Game. EVERYONE HAS A THEME. --Don't get it yet? Let me elaborate: (this is why, BlasterMaster, i was asking people how well they knew Firefly. Because it DOES matter in this game).
Everyone has been PM'ed a Role. Townie, or whatever else, but our townies are NOT just townies. In a theme game, they get something extra. They HAVE A NAME. This why: If you are a fan of FireFly, you probably know who your person is. And you probably know what alignment they were, on the show. So basically, Everyone knows one thing about this game. Who THEY are. And that's the key to the town WINNING this game. Because SCUM didn't realize that until I just SAID it. One reason I didn't want to reveal this info. Point 2: So what does this mean for the GAME?
It means this: Fanatics, can you think of at least 20 people from the FF series that are famous enough to be in this game? Good/Bad/Neutral? Because if you can think it, they probably ARE in here. That's the key thing. We are each a Role. We are each a single person in the FF universe. Scum i'm not sure. Maybe there are villains in this so called "alliance", or maybe they're just "reavers" or some generic name. If so, then they just got caught with their pants down.
That's why I wanna know who the fans are. They're the ones who'll have the easiest time blending in amongst us. I've only seen the movie, but i can still think of at least 10 people to be included in the game. So fans, I'm sure you've got ideas on peep to be in a game.
That Storyteller is why I think there's a 2nd killing group. Because I've only seen one episode of Firefly. It was an episode where this crazy (now this would be the perfect time for a swear word) snuck onto the ship, and tried to kill the FF people during the night. I think that crazy (now this would be the perfect time for a swear word) is in this game. He's a perfect SK role. It's that sorta thinking that'll help us figure out who's who. Because if they're a big person in the FF universe, then they're probably here walking amongst us. Point #3: Stupid Bob: "So wait. Why don't we all just MASS CLAIM?"
Because Now, the scum know this too. And they'll start knowing where to look. If like "Doctor Spock" from the series (sorry, i made it up, i dunno if there is a healer in the FF series, or a cop figure, or a vigilante, but the fans prolly do, thats why i hope some of them are on our side). But if Dr. Spock claims he's "Spock", someone who's a fan of the show and NOT Pro-Town will ALSO jsut as easily be able to deduce WHO that person is. And they'll die during the night.
So our PowerRoles should be kept secret. That's why Mass claiming is BAD. POINT 4: So WHAT DO WE DO? Well, It's simple sorta. 1. We find the 2-3 most suspicious looking people. 2. We then put votes on them. But here's the kicker. We're not trying to vote them to Kill them. Not yet. 3. If we start to lynch against someone, we should STOP around 1/2 to 2/3 of the way there. We can MAKE EDUCATED lynches now. Let's not be stupid.
4. We take our 2-3 people, and we FORCE them to claim. Not their roles or anything like that. Instead, we want only 1 thing from them: Their Names.
5.With that information, we can analyze it. Does that name make sense within the FireFly universe? Ie: Is that guy a good guy or a bad guy in the series? Does that guy even exist? Someone claims he's just a doctor. That's bullshit. Our doctor will have a NAME. Our townies, NAMES. Maybe that crazy Bounty hunter SK dude will have a name too (i wouldn't recognize it. But that's why I need you fanatics alive) cuz you could see if its good or bad.
6. This is the other key thing. We're All in a Mason group of One (Named townies and protowners). The one person in our group: Our name. Because the first thing scum will do if they're put up against the wall, is they're gonna have to FAKE a role-claim. So if they pick "steve the Pirate", and you realize wait, a min. I'm Steve the Pirate, THEN SPEAK UP! That way we'll know we've got a 50-50 shot of scum there (Note, scum may try to do this too, just going, hey, I'm Steve the Pirate, that guy is a liar! ala Dr. Pygmy last game) But at this stage of the game there are 28 of us. I think there's more town obv. than anti-town. So we can afford these 1-1 trades right NOW. Scum can't.
**Step 6 again: since its so important** If no one claims AGAINST said person. And that person is agreed upon by the town to be a likely person to be included in this game. We DO NOT LYNCH that person. We hold off. We can find scummier claims, and scummier targets to look at in our list of 2-3 people. *** This Helps our PowerRoles too. Because then our power roles don't have to CLAIM their powers. they can just state their names (though our more Fanatical members may be able to deduce their roles then). But still, it'll benefit the town more then, cuz we won't have an accidental revealing of the doctor so blindly out there.
Step 7: LYNCH ALL LIARS. AKA: Lynch the Scummiest. Anyone who fakes a Role Claimed Name dies. Anyone who speaks up to be a role, and we discover that person is elsewhere, we look then at those two people for the rest of the day, to figure out who is the potential lynchee.
Stupid Bob:So wait, how can we do this? We can't quote PMs! No, we don't quote our pms. But we are allowed to reveal our Names for the good of the town. We can't quote the PM explaining our roles, but we can explain the flavor "the gist" of what we can do. Just like in past games when someone goes, "i'm a cop or I'm a doctor" etc.
Except in this game, we can do it by NAMES.
********* I hope that'll explain my thoughts. This is why in Closed games it could go either way, Cat.
But in a THEMED CLOSED game. It HEAVILY Favors Townies. Because we're not just Vanillas anymore. We may only be townies, but we've got one piece of information that we should keep to ourselves, and that's our NAMES. And if we find scum and they claim our names, then we can EASILY speak up and try to lynch them.
The reason i held off on posting this is simple: Now the first thing every scum is gonna do is try to figure out what's a SAFE role claim for them to make. The one's who are FF fanatics are gonna have an easier time, but right now I'm suspicious of 3 people:
FOS: 1. BlasterMaster 2. StoryTeller 3. IdleThoughts (lesser, mostly for the annoyance of the 15 thing) 4. Dnooman (You did clear it up, so that's good. But still, you gotta stay on the list, cuz its obvious in TOWNS pm's who the bad guys are and your win conditions)
And with that BlasterMaster, I'd like a RoleClaim out of you. Because you seem the most suspicious to me all day about wanting my info.
So I'll vote for you. But I'll change it once if i hear a reasonable claim. Vote BlasterMaster
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....
Spaceman Spiff Jayne's Hat The player formerly know as BLAM! member is offline
The fact that you have an opinion at all about the likely distribution of roles? --I don't see that as suspicious at all. I have an opinion on what I think we'll see in a game. Are you telling me I shouldn't EVEN THINK about what we're to expect in a near 30 person mafia game? --Just think about this. 30 Players of a Mafia Game. What roles do you think are present? If you say "I have no idea, I won't even FATHOM a guess" then that's just really silly. I do have an opinion, I shared my opinions when asked, but I will not let them rule me. I will let it slightly bias me yes. But nothing more. I don't wish to influence you or nothing with them. But they are my opinions. If asked, I'll retort with them. Which you do point out. A Townie with opinions is meaningless. That's exactly the case here.
But now it becomes scummy to have opinion? What happen to suddenly the townie with a meaningless opinion?
I don't like your reasonings for your vote, and I think it's unfounded.
You don't have an opinion, you don't even have an estimate; you have a guess. Based on my mafia experience, I could guess we probably have more than one killing role, sure. But you're stating it with a degree of certainty.
A game can be balanced in countless ways, and it grows exponentially with each additional player. Maybe there's a bunch of scum, they can balance it off with an extra detective type role, some extra mason type roles, or another doctor type role (I'm guessing these roles are probably in here). Maybe there's few scum, so there's no detective or some other type of killing role. Maybe the scum are disjoint (like in M4). Hell, it's entirely possible that there's only one killing group/role, and it's balanced by a bunch of lovers, or a variation on my avatar or idle's crazy townie role; or maybe there's a bunch of killing roles, and it's balanced off by some extra protective roles.
The point is, you're putting stuff out as substantiable opinion, like your certainty about how much this favors town, and your certainty that there's two killing groups, when it's nothing more than a wild guess. Then you're leaving the town for periods of time to wonder about these "opinions".
As I said before, keeping secrets is a bad idea unless it's related to power roles and even then, it depends (for a reference, go back and read my open speculation about the identity of Steele, when I was vanilla crew, in M4). What it looks like to me, is you're fishing for information, but not in a pro-town way. I think you're putting this ideas out, hoping someone will churn it enough, and make your case for you. In the meantime, speculation fills the thread with a bunch of noise.
Now, there ARE cases where this is justifiable but it should always come with an explanation, if necessary and when appropriate, perhaps excluding certain claimable power roles. Otherwise, my interpretation will be precisely as I've outlined above.
Needless to say, this is reaffirming my vote on you.
You don't have an opinion, you don't even have an estimate; you have a guess. Based on my mafia experience, I could guess we probably have more than one killing role, sure. But you're stating it with a degree of certainty.
Mmkay. Explained why I think there's an SK in my monster post. The only thing that's different though is this. You're thinking OPEN set-up. This is closed and THEME. the THEME part is the key to this whole game.
That's why my hunches are just hunches, but because they have the potential to be so much more.
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....
With all due respect to the game setup, we do not need ten real life days to settle on a Day One lynch target. I believe in order to increase the signal:noise ratio, we should deliberately limit ourselves to a shorter Day - pushing a majority at the end of the fifth real life day if at all possible.
I know this probably sounds out there, but please think it over. Ten days. Ten days of this. Ten days worth of posts to get through when the time comes to look back on toDay in light of new information we'll soon receive. Is that a net benefit to the town? I say not. What say y'all?
Quite frankly I agree. Ten days will have the players tearing each other apart, never mind the town.
I would like to suggest that we aim for two or three suspects by Friday evening and then let the town decide amongst them.
Any longer and we risk the town getting too fractured into parties, followed by a rush vote towards the end of the tenth day.
Joined: Aug 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 124 Location: Hidden and Smiling Karma: 0 [ Exalt | Smite ]
Re: Day 1 « Reply #249 on Sept 12, 2007, 3:45pm »
Roosh's Game Theories
So we are all playing characters from the Firefly universe. NAF intimated that in one of his setup posts.
We currently have well over 30 characters to choose from.
Firefly knowledge will be a two edged sword. Those who know the series may find the start to subconciously emulate the character they have been assigned, which someone with no knowledge cannot do.
Those who don't know the series will not know what to look for, but everyone can read wikipedia when people claim.
In terms of lynching people given their name. Welcome to the world of ambiguity. Some names will be obvious as to whether they are town or scum, others will be less so and an argument within the town as to whether they should be lynched or not based on what people think they are like from the TV series is not going to be beneficial to the town.
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....
Maybe it's because I was a mason last game, and playing alone again feels odd, but I don't think that's it. Maybe it's because I've never played more than a few hours as a vanilla townie before.
Strange, I seem to remember you lasting a good few game days while as a vanilla townie in M3.
Ambiguity is okay though, because (looking on wikipedia) I counted about 33 names in total. Main and not main. And some of those guys are NOT good guys (apparently the SK dude I was thinking of is called Jubal Early). So I think we've got a reasonable plan to work around here. Cuz Scum's not gonna know which one to claim, while townies can easily be confident in claiming their names. So even if ambiguity exists, the chances are slim due to the high chances of crossovers of accidentally naming an existing Townie.
The only thing is. We CANNOT have Lurkers then Lurkers = Bad. Cuz they might miss a Claim of thier own names, and we might let scum live for a while.
But i think it's a good idea esp. for the early game as a way of nailing scummier people.
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....
And also, if you don't lurk, we'll be able to better see people as being their roles. Pro Town people who claim, and are claimed against, we can look back through the posts, and try to decide which of the two people are more townie based on that sort of information.
That's another reason why I feel this idea has merit, because even if scum just sit there and try to counter-claim we can go back and examine then, did that person actually ACT normal? Or were they erratic in their behavior.
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....
Spaceman Spiff Jayne's Hat The player formerly know as BLAM! member is offline
POINT # 1[/u][[/b] This is NOT just a Closed game. It's a CLOSED THEME game. ---Ignorant Bob: "What does That mean? Huh?"
This is a blatant twisting of the facts. Sure, we all have names. Who's to say what they mean exactly. Since I don't know this Universe, I'll stick to one I do know. For instance, it's obvious if we were doing a Star Trek themed game that Dr. McCoy, or Dr. Crusher would be Doctors, but who would be the bad-guys, random villains from random episodes? Who would be vanilla crew? Maybe there's a one-off character in an episode they used because, obvious, you can't have someone like Data, or Spock, or whoever else and NOT have them be SOME kind of power role. What if someone says "I'm Ensign So-and-So", and a fan says "Why the guay would he be in this game? Lynch him" and they're wrong.
Or let's say we're in a Star Wars themed game. It's obvious who the Villains are, but then the power roles would be impossible to distinguish from the role. For instance, who in that universe makes a Doctor? Who makes a good vanilla role?
From my understanding, since this series is only a handful of episodes and a movie, it should be significantly smaller than either of those universes which expands the possibility of a Name, particularly for vanilla townie, being made up, or extremely insignificant and then not looking to be likely to be in the game. Similarly, a claim of a major character would pretty much be tantamount to making a claim of power role, and thus sort of defeats the purpose.
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Point 2: So what does this mean for the GAME?[/u][/b]
What this means is, you want to blindly follow the opinions of fanatics as to which characters are likely and not likely to be in the game, ignoring the potential creative freedom of our moderators and the intuitive and reasoning powers of the players. Sure, I DO agree that giving your name is part of a role-claim, but that's common sense, since it's been done for almost every named role I've seen thus far (in M4 with the officer and Steele claims and, and in M6 when Pygmy claimed). It's just plain less believable if you're making a claim and don't give potentially varifiable information along with your claim.
That is, I WOULD be suspicious if someone just said "Hey, don't lynch me, I'm the doctor" and didn't give their name, but I wouldn't be so easily alleviated if they simply said "My name is such-and-such".
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Point #3: Stupid Bob: "So wait. Why don't we all just MASS CLAIM?"
Because Now, the scum know this too. And they'll start knowing where to look. If like "Doctor Spock" from the series (sorry, i made it up, i dunno if there is a healer in the FF series, or a cop figure, or a vigilante, but the fans prolly do, thats why i hope some of them are on our side). But if Dr. Spock claims he's "Spock", someone who's a fan of the show and NOT Pro-Town will ALSO jsut as easily be able to deduce WHO that person is. And they'll die during the night.
So our PowerRoles should be kept secret. That's why Mass claiming is BAD.
I have to quote this whole thing, because you make part of my point for me. Who's to say that even the fans could necessarily pick out a character who could definitively be a doctor type? I also remember someone earlier mentioning there were several roles that could go either way... what would that mean?
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POINT 4: So WHAT DO WE DO?
I LOVE these "here's how we can win the game" posts, because it's inevitably not going to work. You're assuming names will be cut and dry. You're assuming there won't be some made up names for vanilla townies. Let's say someone says they're the ship's captain, they might as well have claimed doctor, or detective, or whatever along with it, because they just painted a big target on their back, and at that point, the information about their role would likely be more useful to the town.
Hell, who's to say that the main characters are necessarily in the game at all, and it's not a bunch of random small people and a few made up names? Or who's to say that the big important roles, like doctor or detective, weren't deliberately given to lesser or made up names precisely to help level the playing field 'twixt the fans and the ignorant?
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5.With that information, we can analyze it. Does that name make sense within the FireFly universe? Ie: Is that guy a good guy or a bad guy in the series? Does that guy even exist? Someone claims he's just a doctor. That's bullshit. Our doctor will have a NAME. Our townies, NAMES. Maybe that crazy Bounty hunter SK dude will have a name too (i wouldn't recognize it. But that's why I need you fanatics alive) cuz you could see if its good or bad.
Here, you're turning this into a Firefly trivia game, not a Firefly mafia game. Sure, if there's a guy who is a doctor on the show, chances are that would be what he'd be here too, but what if there isn't? How do we know? If you're assuming that every role is necessarily a character "important enough" (however you judge that) and that NAF and Kat took zero creative freedom, then why even both playing?
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6. This is the other key thing. We're All in a Mason group of One (Named townies and protowners). The one person in our group: Our name.
And, what if some of the names are made up? We can't verify that until either we see one, or the game is over. As soon as they scum can verify there's made up names, they can just make up one similar.
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**Step 6 again: since its so important** If no one claims AGAINST said person. And that person is agreed upon by the town to be a likely person to be included in this game. We DO NOT LYNCH that person.
Step 7: LYNCH ALL LIARS. AKA: Lynch the Scummiest. Anyone who fakes a Role Claimed Name dies. Anyone who speaks up to be a role, and we discover that person is elsewhere, we look then at those two people for the rest of the day, to figure out who is the potential lynchee.
Stupid Bob:So wait, how can we do this? We can't quote PMs! No, we don't quote our pms. But we are allowed to reveal our Names for the good of the town. We can't quote the PM explaining our roles, but we can explain the flavor "the gist" of what we can do. Just like in past games when someone goes, "i'm a cop or I'm a doctor" etc.
Except in this game, we can do it by NAMES.
AGAIN, turning this into a trivia game, when we don't have any way to prove that all the roles fans might thing are good or bad ARE good or bad AND no way to prove there aren't made up names, particularly to fill out vanilla spots.
IF you can provide ANY evidence to prove that that's the case, THEN I might believe you. Otherwise, I'll put enough faith in our co-mods that they wouldn't be so oblivious as to make it a trivia game.
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I hope that'll explain my thoughts. This is why in Closed games it could go either way, Cat.
But in a THEMED CLOSED game. It HEAVILY Favors Townies. Because we're not just Vanillas anymore. We may only be townies, but we've got one piece of information that we should keep to ourselves, and that's our NAMES. And if we find scum and they claim our names, then we can EASILY speak up and try to lynch them.
The reason i held off on posting this is simple: Now the first thing every scum is gonna do is try to figure out what's a SAFE role claim for them to make. The one's who are FF fanatics are gonna have an easier time, but right now I'm suspicious of 3 people:
FOS: 1. BlasterMaster 2. StoryTeller 3. IdleThoughts (lesser, mostly for the annoyance of the 15 thing) 4. Dnooman (You did clear it up, so that's good. But still, you gotta stay on the list, cuz its obvious in TOWNS pm's who the bad guys are and your win conditions)
And with that BlasterMaster, I'd like a RoleClaim out of you. Because you seem the most suspicious to me all day about wanting my info.
So I'll vote for you. But I'll change it once if i hear a reasonable claim. Vote BlasterMaster
You've GOT to be kidding. You want a role-claim from me, when the only vote for me is made with TERRIBLE reasoning by someone I think is scum? What if I'm a very important power-role, wouldn't you feel like a trained ape...without the training? What if I'm really a vanilla townie with a name made up by NAF or Kat, wouldn't you feel like a jerk? What if I'm scum...? I can claim a name that is a likely power role and either force them to counter-claim or gain massive trust when no one does (because they don't actually exist, or the real power role doesn't feel comfortable claiming yet) OR I could bank on there being made up vanilla roles and hope to establish that precedent.
Either way, this is DEFINITELY the scummiest post so far Today! Can I vote for Roosh twice?
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....
zuma Waiting to be cows Replaced by Dotchan member is offline
Joined: May 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 51 Karma: 0 [ Exalt | Smite ]
Re: Day 1 « Reply #258 on Sept 12, 2007, 4:22pm »
I'm trying to get out of work but I'll be quick. Blaster Master and I see things the same way. I've seen games where even a role of a "good" character is scum in the game, and vice-versa. I've seen games where there are a lot of characters are just made up and I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case here as well.
I mean, if you took a list of 30 players, gave them all clearly defined good and bad characters, the game is broken. NAF and Kat, I'm sure, took the time to remedy the situation.
I do agree that the first step in forcing a claim is to make them give their character name before revealing their role, to see if there is a character name counter-claim, but at this point I'm certainly not going to vote to lynch based on their character name being "good" or "bad" or non-existant until we have a handle on how the game has been set up.
For instance, it's obvious if we were doing a Star Trek themed game that Dr. McCoy, or Dr. Crusher would be Doctors, but who would be the bad-guys, random villains from random episodes?
What if someone says "I'm Ensign So-and-So", and a fan says "Why the guay would he be in this game? Lynch him" and they're wrong.
We are still playing a game of mafia. When that case comes up, we should then examine other evidence. The names are a Very HELPFUL way to proofread our mistakes to prevent MISLYNCHES. If some people want to debate the existence of a character, then let them (but it's not the only way we should do business, but it's a factor). -Basically, treat everyone as a Mason group of one. ---If no one counterclaims, then hold off on them. But if someone counterclaims said person, then you know what you're dealing with right away. But saying "so-and-so" doesn't sound like a good person to be in the game, doesn't MEAN you should automatically lynch someone.
This isn't the end all theory. It's just my proposal on what I think can help the town aLOT more than anything else right now (trying to figure out how to hammer lynches appparently, and what's a majority-- We need to TALK about DATA, and not just the whole bullshitting on what's a majority).
For instance, who in that universe makes a Doctor? Who makes a good vanilla role?
I don't want to know the answer to that. I want our power roles to be able to hide among our townies. And to try to pry on that sort of thinking is not shiny for the town in my opinion.
Wikipedia lists about 9-12 Major roles and 25 minor roles in the FF series. I think our Mods gave plenty of room to work with. What I'm saying is that Townies are safe in their names, it's just the SCUM that have to worry about "picking" the right names. That's why this favors the town.
What this means is, you want to blindly follow the opinions of fanatics as to which characters are likely and not likely to be in the game, ignoring the potential creative freedom of our moderators and the intuitive and reasoning powers of the players.
WHAT?? We all have names. Names from the show. I don't see how that blindly follows a fanatic. **I'm saying if someone claims, and No one counterclaims, then we should be more inclined to believe them as being town.** I don't see what all that has to do with our Mods and your reasoning as a player.
Sure, I DO agree that giving your name is part of a role-claim, but that's common sense, since it's been done for almost every named role I've seen thus far (in M4 with the officer and Steele claims and, and in M6 when Pygmy claimed). It's just plain less believable if you're making a claim and don't give potentially verifiable information along with your claim.
That is, I WOULD be suspicious if someone just said "Hey, don't lynch me, I'm the doctor" and didn't give their name, but I wouldn't be so easily alleviated if they simply said "My name is such-and-such".
To me that paragraph feels like you're agreeing with me. Like what if they said I'm "So and So" the captain of the ship. AND no-one else disagreed? Isn't that the same as a Mason saying "Yo, I'm in a masonic group, anyone wanna disagree with me?"
In my eyes, that player WOULD be gaining credibility for such a role claim. If someone makes a big claim, and no one counters it, It's totally in my eyes a believable claim. Obviously if someone claims an existent minor role, I'll believe that too if no one counters it. It just makes sense to me. If someone claims they're that crazy MoFo SK dude. I'll be more likely to want to lynch them. To me, it just makes sense. Doesn't it to you?
Who's to say that even the fans could necessarily pick out a character who could definitively be a doctor type? I also remember someone earlier mentioning there were several roles that could go either way... what would that mean?
It would mean you're trying to FISH for ROLES. That's Not what we as a town WANT. WE DON'T CARE IF THEY"RE A POTENTIAL DOCTOR OR NOT. THAT IS NOT THE POINT. SCUM WOULD WANT TO KNOW THE ROLES. Townies should just be content in knowing that the accused said a name and it was UNCONTESTED. That's ALL.
You're assuming names will be cut and dry. You're assuming there won't be some made up names for vanilla townies. Let's say someone says they're the ship's captain, they might as well have claimed doctor, or detective, or whatever along with it, because they just painted a big target on their back, and at that point, the information about their role would likely be more useful to the town.
Yes, I am assuming no made up names would be needed (there are 33 possible names already, and this game IS for the fans, so i think they don't NEED the fake names. But now to the 2nd part: how is your target scenario any different from when a cop is being lynched? My Scenario would actually try to prevent that. Because if they just said their names, [and with no need to reveal they're the cop or whatever], they could just blend back into the town, and we wouldn't worry about their roles (let the scum play WIFOM with that shit). ---This is to just help authenticate TOWNINESS. Not to fish for roles. Let the scum pick if someone could be a potential VIG or a potential cop or a doctor at night. Our goal is simply to say, okay, do they seem TOWN? That's IT.
Hell, who's to say that the main characters are necessarily in the game at all, and it's not a bunch of random small people and a few made up names? Or who's to say that the big important roles, like doctor or detective, weren't deliberately given to lesser or made up names precisely to help level the playing field 'twixt the fans and the ignorant?
Again, man, with the fishing. We DON'T CARE WHAT THEIR ROLES ARE. WE DON'T WANT TO KNOW WHAT THEIR ABILITIES ARE. WE are using this method simply for one reason: to help prove PRO-TOWN status. Not to fish for roles. So if a lesser role is a doctor, then that's FINE. He will just claim WHO he is (Name only), if no one challenges, then we leave him be. That's it. No need to discover he's the secret hidden doctor or not. All we did was: We proved he's a role that no one else has. That will help establish towniness. And then we're done. We're not using this to kill people like crazy, we're using this to help save people! -- And I believe the main characters ARE in the game--
Here, you're turning this into a Firefly trivia game, not a Firefly mafia game. Sure, if there's a guy who is a doctor on the show, chances are that would be what he'd be here too, but what if there isn't? How do we know?
We don't. Nor do we want to know that. Why do you seem to eager to find out who doctors are? I want to find town. Period. End of sentence. At this point... a lot of your points are repetitive, and I am truly suspicious of you. I was hoping you'd discuss my ideas. But now I'm leaning towards the fact that you are quite scummy in your anti-Town stance in this.
And, what if some of the names are made up? We can't verify that until either we see one, or the game is over. As soon as they scum can verify there's made up names, they can just make up one similar.
I highly doubt made up names exist in here. If so, we'll find out tomorrow on day 2 when we see the dead. If that happens, by all means then throw this idea out the window. Until then, consider this plan the best (if only) one suggested so far that actually DEAL with a way to establish guilt/towniness and not just about nonsense.
IF you can provide ANY evidence to prove that that's the case, THEN I might believe you. Otherwise, I'll put enough faith in our co-mods that they wouldn't be so oblivious as to make it a trivia game.
Just come back to this on Day 2. And check your dead against what I've just said. If you find made up names, then fine. I'm wrong. Until then, don't be so quick to toss this idea out the window. And I don't see how this is a trivia game. We're not trying to establish if anyone is or ISn't in the game based on name. we're simply going by the fact does anyone else have the SAME name as a way to see potential scum.
Basically: If we were all given random numbers from 1-40. But not the scum, they would have to make up numbers to fit in. If a scum made up a number that didn't exist, then fine, they got away from this part, then we'll have to use the Mafia skills we own to establish that they are somehow scummy. However, if they say the same number as another player, then we EASILY know for sure that one of those two people are scummy. It's an easy way to find obvious guilt and reduce the arguements from 1 in 28 or whatever, to 1 in 2. That's the point of this system. Not to sit and discuss "are they in the game or not". We just want a REAL name. If its in the game and uncounterclaimed, no matter how obscure, we leave it alone. However, after a few days, we can see from our dead how obscure the names really were, so we can go back and re-test then our more obscure players. Easy as Pie. no?
What if I'm a very important power-role, wouldn't you feel like a trained ape...without the training? What if I'm really a vanilla townie with a name made up by NAF or Kat, wouldn't you feel like a jerk? What if I'm scum...? I can claim a name that is a likely power role and either force them to counter-claim or gain massive trust when no one does (because they don't actually exist, or the real power role doesn't feel comfortable claiming yet) OR I could bank on there being made up vanilla roles and hope to establish that precedent.
That wouldn't be very townie of you. You could just also wait and see if you gather enough votes from other players before claiming. -And if you claimed a "big" role, well if you're scum, you don't know if those roles may be the power roles, as you said yourself earlier. -And if they're too scared to claim. That's fine. We'd let you live for a while, but perhaps after a few days, they could speak up and we'd have an easy 50-50 again. -Or maybe they end up being killed at night. Then in the morning, you'd be a dead man. -Or perhaps we don't believe you. perhaps our cop could still investigate you. --You can make up scenarios all you want, but we as a town can easily overcome them if we just sit and think about it rationally.
My ideas aren't the end all, play all ideas. But I think they're something at least, and at this point we've got NOTHING else going on in terms of useful discussion.
But after examining your post, i do feel quite better about my own vote on you. Unless that was a VERY VERY Knee Jerk reactionary post (which i'd think more of scum than town to do), your post seemed very intention on just hammering on a few ideas, that can easily be solved.
Why not just take my ideas and IMPROVE upon them, rather than claiming i'm scum for suggesting ANYThing?
You sir seem to be acting anti-town for not trying to add to the discussion but rather just attack the man rather than the ideas, and I'm happy to vote for you. For the rest of you, what do you people think? I want my ideas to be just that. Obviously this is just the start, but we can use it to help establish claims later on, and I think this is a useful concept to develop further (mostly, because this IS the major way to play in these types of games from a certain unmentionably scummy website).
But You guys are Dopers, and your mafia games are a bit differently played. But what I'm suggesting is what i've seen for these sorts of games on other forums, so if you have improvements or suggestions, I would totally welcome that.
If you just want to attack it. well, I'll try to do my best to defend or explain it. ~Roosh
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....
I mean, if you took a list of 30 players, gave them all clearly defined good and bad characters, the game is broken. NAF and Kat, I'm sure, took the time to remedy the situation.
I do agree that the first step in forcing a claim is to make them give their character name before revealing their role, to see if there is a character name counter-claim, but at this point I'm certainly not going to vote to lynch based on their character name being "good" or "bad" or non-existant until we have a handle on how the game has been set up.
Yes! I totally agree with you here. MY IDEAS (not BM's twisting of it) Is just that. WE DON'T want to lynch based on the Role's Personality just yet (unless its like SO frikking obvious at this point and it's the only thing we've got).
But what this should be is a litmus test for towniness. I want to focus more on the whole "See if anyone else claims it" part rather than the whole "Personality of the claimer" thing.
Treat the names like you would a one man masonhood. That's ALL. Don't fish for roles/abilities/powers. Just see if it holds up to the basic idea: "Could they be town because they are the only one's with that name?"
Thank you for your comments, Zuma. I agree with you. We shouldn't lynch just on personality or what we think is such. Only just to see if anyone else counterclaims. That's IT.
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....
I'm sorry people. But please take the time to read mine/BM/My exchange. I think it's honestly more useful than the whole majority/15/ What about a no-lynch?/ Issue right now. Otherwise i feel like we have nothing else that we're doing but going in circles. every game it's like people come up with new ways to create clusterfucks with #'s that don't really deal with a major issue of the game.
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....
Joined: Aug 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 124 Location: Hidden and Smiling Karma: 0 [ Exalt | Smite ]
Re: Day 1 « Reply #262 on Sept 12, 2007, 5:35pm »
Ok,
To circumvent the entire set of conversation, it goes like this.
According to Roosh, when everyone was PM'd their roles, they were given a name and what they can do.
This name will belong to a character in the Firefly universe.
This I agree with as NAF has intimated as such. However, we have over 30 names to choose from all of whom have indistinct affiliations.
The only reasonable outcome of this as far as I can tell, is that when someone roleclaims, they will give their name. We check it against the known characters and everyone checks against who they are.
In the same way as someone can roleclaim doctor or detective we can check out their name.
That's it.
To lynch someone based on their name though, as far as I am concerned, is a really dumb thing to do.
Joined: Aug 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 124 Location: Hidden and Smiling Karma: 0 [ Exalt | Smite ]
Re: Day 1 « Reply #263 on Sept 12, 2007, 5:55pm »
Concerning Role-claims - something just occured.
If the people are as indistinct as they usually are in a Joss Wheedon universe, frankly the Scum could roleclaim and we would not lynch them at all.
No-one else would have their role and it would be exceedingly difficult to say whether the scum was good/bad/neutral. So they would be able to stand there and no-one would counter-claim and say but I'm a townie and no-one would know what to think.
Sorry Roosh, this one is a non-starter.
As an Example, someone claims "The Operative". Is that person scum or not. At the start of Serenity he is working for the Alliance, by the end of Serenity, he has left the Alliance.
We have no idea where or when NAF/Kat have set this game other than it is in the Firefly Universe.
(Unless the claim "Hands of Blue" in which case they definitely get lynched )
Joined: May 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 98 Karma: 0 [ Exalt | Smite ]
Re: Day 1 « Reply #264 on Sept 12, 2007, 10:48pm »
Roosh -
Well, OK, now that you've explained it, your idea is interesting. Others have pointed out its flaws, of course - namely, that it is entirely possible that the scum have "names" that tell us nothing at all about their alignment. In fact, I'd say it's almost certain. If the scum all have names like "Baddie McEvilton the 666th," then we could break the game by simply all making a name claim. The scum, with their characteristically evil names, would be forced to counterclaim good guys, we'd lynch all the double claims, and presto, game over.
Also, even with the prominent characters whose alignment we can guess, the nature of the role might not be clear, and making assumptions on that front could be dangerous. I mean, folks who've watched the show probably have a good guess as to what name the "Doctor" role is going to have, yes?
Ambiguity is okay though, because (looking on wikipedia) I counted about 33 names in total. Main and not main. And some of those guys are NOT good guys (apparently the SK dude I was thinking of is called Jubal Early).
Jubal Early was not a serial killer, nor even a killer (at least, he never killed anyone in his appearance on the show). He was a bounty hunter. A mean, nasty, violent, bounty hunter, but a bounty hunter. How that might - or might not - apply in terms of this game is not clear, but if Early appears in this game, assuming that he is an "SK" type would probably be a dangerous assumption.
Quote:
But i think it's a good idea esp. for the early game as a way of nailing scummier people.
Again, if a player is scum and his role name is "Derek," and he's pushed against the wall, he can just claim "Derek." How does this help us?
------------------
But on a larger note, I am curious at the reasoning behind your suspicion list. You've named Idle, and given a reason (although I find it a questionable reason, and one that you seem to be parroting rather than stating), and dnooman, and me (that's not surprising at all, since you seem to generally assume that anyone who votes for you is not on your side).
But you've voted for Blaster Master, on the grounds that when you said you had something to say, he urged you to say it. Why, specifically, do you find that scummy? Others have urged you to be less secretive, notably zeriel who was the first to raise the issue. Why is Blaster Master's interest in a point that you were deliberately dangling over the town's collective head a sign of scumminess?
Re: Day 1 « Reply #265 on Sept 12, 2007, 11:34pm »
I see a couple of problems with the Roosh theory of play as well, forgive me if I'm just repeating the obvious.
1) Like Cat says there are a lot of morally ambiguous characters in Firefly. guay they’re mercenaries. I mentioned Jayne earlier, who actually sells out the crew in one episode. But an even better one as pointed out by CatInASuit is the Operative. If someone roll claims the operative what does that tell us about they’re scumminess or crewness: NOTHING.
2) Even if you’re given the name of a minor character who is obviously good or bad in the Firefly-verse who’s to say that NAF and Kat didn’t do the old switcheroo and make them the opposite in the game.
3) But my biggest problem with all this name claiming as a method of rooting out scum is it’s potential for outing power roles way too early in the game. The first thing that came to my mind while reading Roosh’s manifesto was “Wow what a slick way to possibly out the doctor” If I was scum about to be tossed out the airlock I’d immediately claim to be Dr. Simon Tam and therefore the Doc in our little game, guessing that his role would be one of the likeliest to correspond in both settings. So our doctor has two choices, stay silent or out himself. Both bad choices for the crew, but most excellent for scum.
Which brings me to Rooshes supposed lack of knowledge about who the Dr. was on Firefly. Come on, he’s a major character, you’ve been to the Wiki and found the list of minor characters and you missed Simon in the list of major characters. I find that very hard to believe.
So tell me again how name-claiming is going to help us more than it hurts us.
Re: Day 1 « Reply #266 on Sept 12, 2007, 11:37pm »
BM's seems the scummiest to me simply because of the way he seemed to be going after me, yes. I assumed I would garner votes, and I did not mind that. But I felt that he was actually PUSHING for me to be lynched, which caught me off guard. The other votes on me, not so much. they're FoSed, and I'll get to looking at them when I have time. The thing that gets me though is his reply TO my posting.
I put one vote of suspicion on the man, and he all but comes out with a long winding post that distorts my words, and attacks ME for my ideas without really trying to address my ideas. The subsequent posters have actually seemed to look at my ideas, and give it thought. BlaM Just out and says "NO! ITS BAD! IT"S VERY BAD!" And then claims I'm even more scummier FOR such a thing. This to me makes NO sense, and it just seems like he's reaching to try to attack me over nothing.
That's why I'm content with voting for the guy. Mostly because in the manner he addresses my ideas make me feel suspicious as to where his sudden disliking of the idea comes from. I think it just might be that he wants it completely gone, because it would be bad for scum if this lasted, and is trying to discredit me, not through discussion, but via contorting my ideas and mySELF as being scummy for even thinking these sorts of ideas.
That is why I find BlaM the most suspicious. Dnooman is suspicious to me because of his comments on night one. The others are suspicious to me because they've voted for me, yes. Because I know that they're voting in the wrong way. But I'm only going to Fos them (which as you know, is something I love to do to keep a reminder to myself to pay attention to them).
BlaM however has just been so... out there in his dislike of my ideas that it not only catches my eye, but also as to why he wants to shut down disccussion of it even. That's more so why I am suspicious of BlaM (and my tone indicates so, as i start to analyze his discussion against me).
I put the vote on him at first, because he looked suspicious, and I wanted to press the issue further with him. I got my response. It was the crazy Post he replied to my ideas with. That to me is the more of indicator of my suspicions being right, rather than his earlier postings.
As for Zerial, well, BlaM just caught my eye over and over with his Anti-Me rhetoric, and yes he voted for me. That to me IS suspicious. I tend to look at people one by one. And of the people i looked at, he is most suspicious currently.
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....
So tell me again how name-claiming is going to help us more than it hurts us.
Simple. The Name Claiming is an easy way to establish Proof of identity. So WHAT if someone claims to be the Objective or Blue hands. The key is NOT in the Role, but in the CLAIM. -->If noone opposes it, then we leave it be. That's all it should be used for. We can play WIFOM with the roles later in teh game (like once a night has passed and we start seeing who ends up dead: ie: if a BIG good guy ends up dead, it probably means teh good guys are good. If the bad guy or a "neutral" guy ends up dead, then we know that we can't really pay attention to the Role's alignment. But this is just a STARTING point.
---And secondly: the PsuedoDoctor Scenario: If we have someone claim Doctor Simon (I didn't look up the main characters, I only looked up the minor ones trying to find that SK guy i was thinking of, I can't actually list the roles off yet. I'll go back and read it in due time). But if they claim doctor. Then LET our doctor stay silent.
What harm will come of it? Because NOW the Scum have a problem- If they KILL the REAL doctor, they've automatically the first lynch for the next day. So we have 3 Scum claim to be the 3 biggest characters on teh ship. The real ones can safely stay hidden as long as they are in no danger of being lynched. Then if any one of them dies, obviously we'll have been given a free Scum the next day. It's Pure and Simple.
Only 1 person can be Simon Tam, if Scum plays it, they're going to be playing with a noose around thier neck the whole time, because also at anytime if we've been nailing the other scum, the Real role could just bide thier time and then finally post their results (ie: cop investigations maybe or some such like the Doctor diaries of last game) and we'll be reduced to a 50-50 choice on who scum is. Still favors the town.
Also, if there are multiple killing groups, who's to say that if scum claim to be the Doctor, that another group WON'T MIND taking him out? Or if he claims to be someone who is part of an ACTUAL Masonhood?
These possibilities all help OUT THE TOWN. That's why i think it's a good idea. Because it REALLY increases teh Risks for a scum to "False Claim"
And if the Jubal Guy claims that he's innocent, fine. As long as noone else steps up to claim he's jubal that's all good. But if we start seeing Murders by an SK start happening or something with a flavor that hints towards Some crazy rapist running around, I know EXACTLY where i'll be looking then. But that's all for LATER game.
The first step is simply implementing this idea to trip up FALSE Claims. Nothing more. I'll let
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....
Re: Day 1 « Reply #268 on Sept 12, 2007, 11:48pm »
The key is to implement this idea EARLY, while there are 28 of us, and NOT realizing that this is a good idea when there's only 10 of us left or so. We need to do it while we've got plenty of Townies left to talk about it and it's okay to bide our time.
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....
Re: Day 1 « Reply #269 on Sept 12, 2007, 11:52pm »
Also, could we hear from some of the minor posters who've only posted like once early on, and then are just sitting back? What the Frak. I'm looking at you. And has Tragic even said ANYthing yet?
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....
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