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Sept 21, 2007, 12:22am





Mafia Games :: Serenity :: Firefly :: On board the ship Serenity :: Day 1
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #480 on Sept 14, 2007, 6:41am »
[Quote]


Sept 14, 2007, 6:29am, storyteller0910 wrote:
Blow me, you colossal (and spectacularly useless, in every game I've yet to see you play) hwoon dahn.
Yes, out of a sample size of one, that would be the game where I correctly fingered scum on day 1 with my vote and FOS'ed another player who was acting on hidden information? Spectacularly useless, yep that's a fair and accurate summary. Shall I repost your funny story here?

Enjoy,
Steven
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #481 on Sept 14, 2007, 6:44am »
[Quote]


Sept 14, 2007, 6:41am, mtgman wrote:

Sept 14, 2007, 6:29am, storyteller0910 wrote:
Blow me, you colossal (and spectacularly useless, in every game I've yet to see you play) hwoon dahn.
Yes, out of a sample size of one, that would be the game where I correctly fingered scum on day 1 with my vote and FOS'ed another player who was acting on hidden information? Spectacularly useless, yep that's a fair and accurate summary. Shall I repost your funny story here?

Enjoy,
Steven


...and got your dumb ass killed. Don't forget that.

Like I said, blow me. After your last post, my level of interest in anything you have to say could not possibly get any lower.
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #482 on Sept 14, 2007, 6:48am »
[Quote]


Sept 14, 2007, 6:28am, Rugger, Pygmy wrote:

Sept 14, 2007, 5:58am, Idle Thoughts wrote:
<snip>
So the question remains, how did you not know the name of the scum group?



Sept 11, 2007, 9:28am, Kat wrote:
[i]Blue Sun and the Alliance government appear to be up to their old tricks again. <snip>


Yes, I know Alliance are the bad guys. However, with all this talk of there possibly being multiple scum factions that we don't know about, I entertained the idea that Blue Sun might be the other one. So, if somebody were to have answered, "Blue Sun" are the bad guys, we might have found a member of the second group.


Well, okay.
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #483 on Sept 14, 2007, 6:51am »
[Quote]

PS. I want to see you two guys kiss and make up.

But seriously, come on guys, let's not have bad blood come out of this. Even with all of my emotion in every game, I never wind up hating anyone. Even zuma I still love. *cuddles with zuma* See?
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #484 on Sept 14, 2007, 6:52am »
[Quote]


Sept 14, 2007, 2:45am, Rugger, Pygmy wrote:
If dnooman were scum, there would have been no confusion that he was part of a team. However, scum doesn't mean just Mafia (what the heck is the scum called in this game?), it also means roles that aren't town aligned. I'm thinking dnooman is some type of SK or similar, which is not pro town. Any time there are killings that don't carry accountability, or when there's a much larger chance of hitting town than scum, it benefits scum.

Vote dnooman


Okay, I'm not finished catching up, and I'm not even sure how much this has been handled, but these votes for dnooman are just... bad. He very well may have made a slip, but what does that mean? It doesn't really mean ANYTHING about his alignment, because it may have been an impartial slip, or it may not have the magnifying information.

Example: The Crusader role from MV. Granted, I have higher hopes for how it would get played out (no offense to Diggit), but the idea was, he was still town aligned, but had extra powers, and paid for it with an extra win condition.

Either way, the logic against dnooman seems to be essentially the following: He made a slip. I theorize that slip is similar to an SK type role. Therefore, he is scum.

In essence, you're going to lynch someone based on pure speculation about the types of roles and their powers that are in this game. Assuming it is an actual slip, it very well could be an SK type role, or it could be a modified VIG role. What if it's a role that wins or loses without regard to whether the town wins or loses?

IOW, I'm going to reiterate an earlier point: PLEASE don't vote for people based on speculations of the roles because, unless you have special information, you can't justify that vote. We can't say with any certainty if an SK role exists. Instead, vote for who you think is scummy, and they may be vanilla scum, or some GF type role, or some SK type role, or who knows what else, but regardless, we can still do that independent of knowledge about the roles.
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #485 on Sept 14, 2007, 6:54am »
[Quote]

Well it has been an interesting day. I will be lowering my posting amount to try be more concise and reduce the amount of posts for other people to trawl through.

And yes I am going to be blunt as well.

Here is my list of suspects as it stands and in no particular order:

FOS Suspects
Pygmy Rugger: Your comment about what the name of the scum is has been noted. The townies (of which I am a member) know exactly who the scum are. Regardless of your next post, which could also be considered an attempted save.

Idle Thoughts: Your jovial interplay with Roosh, followed by backing off has struck me as scummy. This may change in the future.

Major Suspects
MadTheSwine: As far as I can tell you have lied about StoryTeller actions in M6. Under LaL, you should swing.

Roosh: From your descriptions and the setup of your idea and the justifications that followed, you are not a vanilla townie. Whether this means you are a power role or a scum is open for debate.

Dnooman: You can't even be bothered to try and defend your Night 1 comment and you sound bored by the entire thing as though you were caught with your hand in the cookie jar.

Of the three Major suspects, I feel most comfortable about

vote dnooman

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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #486 on Sept 14, 2007, 6:55am »
[Quote]


Sept 14, 2007, 6:52am, Spaceman Spiff wrote:

Sept 14, 2007, 2:45am, Rugger, Pygmy wrote:
If dnooman were scum, there would have been no confusion that he was part of a team. However, scum doesn't mean just Mafia (what the heck is the scum called in this game?), it also means roles that aren't town aligned. I'm thinking dnooman is some type of SK or similar, which is not pro town. Any time there are killings that don't carry accountability, or when there's a much larger chance of hitting town than scum, it benefits scum.

Vote dnooman


Okay, I'm not finished catching up, and I'm not even sure how much this has been handled, but these votes for dnooman are just... bad. He very well may have made a slip, but what does that mean? It doesn't really mean ANYTHING about his alignment, because it may have been an impartial slip, or it may not have the magnifying information.

Example: The Crusader role from MV. Granted, I have higher hopes for how it would get played out (no offense to Diggit), but the idea was, he was still town aligned, but had extra powers, and paid for it with an extra win condition.

Either way, the logic against dnooman seems to be essentially the following: He made a slip. I theorize that slip is similar to an SK type role. Therefore, he is scum.

In essence, you're going to lynch someone based on pure speculation about the types of roles and their powers that are in this game. Assuming it is an actual slip, it very well could be an SK type role, or it could be a modified VIG role. What if it's a role that wins or loses without regard to whether the town wins or loses?

IOW, I'm going to reiterate an earlier point: PLEASE don't vote for people based on speculations of the roles because, unless you have special information, you can't justify that vote. We can't say with any certainty if an SK role exists. Instead, vote for who you think is scummy, and they may be vanilla scum, or some GF type role, or some SK type role, or who knows what else, but regardless, we can still do that independent of knowledge about the roles.


Well, OK, you're absolutely right. But here's the problem. To me, there are two kinds of behaviors that might be characterized as "scummy":

1. Behaviors that seem to betray the possession of extra information;

and

2. Behaviors that seem to be attempting to manufacture a particular outcome artificially.

The problem is that both of these could apply to scum, or serial killers, or pro-town power roles. It seems like the hazard of chasing scum is going to be that the same methods you use to root them out might also root out a pro-town power role here and there. If there is a way around this, I'd love to hear it.
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #487 on Sept 14, 2007, 6:57am »
[Quote]


Sept 14, 2007, 6:44am, storyteller0910 wrote:
...and got your dumb ass killed. Don't forget that.

Like I said, blow me. After your last post, my level of interest in anything you have to say could not possibly get any lower.
Ok, I won't bore you by saying anything. Here's something from someone you love to hear talk.
Quote:
by storyteller0910 (Note: The "you" in this tale is Mtgman)

So, early Day 1, I'm guessing you were probably wondering, "why the guay is this guy riding me about nothing?"

Sachertorte is one of the other monks. When I first received the PM listing the monks, I resolved that early in the game, I would do everything I could to distance myself from the others - even to the point of cultivating a feud with one of them, so that if one of us was lynched or night-killed, the others could remain under the radar.

Early on, sachertorte started posting theoretical analysis, and since I feel (though not nearly as strongly as I may seem) that this is a counterproductive line of discussion, I figured I'd go after him. Shortly thereafter, you joined in with your own meta-game discussion, and I engaged you, as well (thinking it would be awfully inconsistent to attack sachertorte and not you).

Well, somehow, in the space of a few posts, I got things totally turned around and started thinking you were the other Monk. As our exchange was getting more and more heated, I was thrilled - "wow," I thought to myself, "he's really understanding what I'm trying to do. He's really doing a good job of pretending to be annoyed with me. No Cultist in the world is going to think we're linked."

This went on for most of our exchange. Then I... um... realized you weren't a Monk. But I had noticed what I thought were inconsistencies in your posts, and things proceeded as they did.

So that's my story. For most of our in-game fight, I firmly believed that we were both playacting, to hide our association as Monks.

I am an idiot.
Idle, I have no emnity towards storyteller0910. I just think he's full of gos se when he's in game mode, as demonstrated by the above story, and his lack of mention of his own involvement in getting my dumb ass killed on Day 1 of M5.

Enjoy,
Steven
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #488 on Sept 14, 2007, 7:09am »
[Quote]

[oog]Seriously, this is WAY too early to be getting as upset with eachother as I'm seeing Storyteller and Mtgman. I don't mind personal attacks as long as they're intended in good faith. I'm not sensing that here.[/oog]
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #489 on Sept 14, 2007, 7:11am »
[Quote]


Sept 14, 2007, 6:57am, mtgman wrote:

Sept 14, 2007, 6:44am, storyteller0910 wrote:
...and got your dumb ass killed. Don't forget that.

Like I said, blow me. After your last post, my level of interest in anything you have to say could not possibly get any lower.
Ok, I won't bore you by saying anything. Here's something from someone you love to hear talk.
Quote:
by storyteller0910 (Note: The "you" in this tale is Mtgman)

So, early Day 1, I'm guessing you were probably wondering, "why the guay is this guy riding me about nothing?"

Sachertorte is one of the other monks. When I first received the PM listing the monks, I resolved that early in the game, I would do everything I could to distance myself from the others - even to the point of cultivating a feud with one of them, so that if one of us was lynched or night-killed, the others could remain under the radar.

Early on, sachertorte started posting theoretical analysis, and since I feel (though not nearly as strongly as I may seem) that this is a counterproductive line of discussion, I figured I'd go after him. Shortly thereafter, you joined in with your own meta-game discussion, and I engaged you, as well (thinking it would be awfully inconsistent to attack sachertorte and not you).

Well, somehow, in the space of a few posts, I got things totally turned around and started thinking you were the other Monk. As our exchange was getting more and more heated, I was thrilled - "wow," I thought to myself, "he's really understanding what I'm trying to do. He's really doing a good job of pretending to be annoyed with me. No Cultist in the world is going to think we're linked."

This went on for most of our exchange. Then I... um... realized you weren't a Monk. But I had noticed what I thought were inconsistencies in your posts, and things proceeded as they did.

So that's my story. For most of our in-game fight, I firmly believed that we were both playacting, to hide our association as Monks.

I am an idiot.
Idle, I have no emnity towards storyteller0910. I just think he's full of gos se when he's in game mode, as demonstrated by the above story, and his lack of mention of his own involvement in getting my dumb ass killed on Day 1 of M5.

Enjoy,
Steven


Wow, you really are a piece of gos se.

You got your dumb ass killed because you suck at expressing yourself. Part of this game is the capacity to actually communicate your ideas in a way that makes people want to listen. You consistently fail to do that because you're condescending, unclear, and meandering. The fact that I was a part of your death in M2 is irrelevant - you died because you couldn't convince people that you shouldn't.

And yes, I humped up in M2, thinking you were a Monk. What of it? I screw up same as everyone, and I've never denied it.

Frankly, I don't know what the fuck your problem is. But I didn't sign on to have my Number One Fan come in here and fuck with me on such a personal level (and if you want to deny that you're getting personal, how about you re-read that "someone you love to hear talk" remark above? I mean, seriously, you pompous windbag, fuck you). So how's about you go back to posting 9,000 words on your latest can't-miss way to win the game, fer sure, everybody, and I'll go back to actually playing the game, and everybody can be happy.
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #490 on Sept 14, 2007, 7:14am »
[Quote]


Sept 14, 2007, 7:09am, Spaceman Spiff wrote:
[oog]Seriously, this is WAY too early to be getting as upset with eachother as I'm seeing Storyteller and Mtgman. I don't mind personal attacks as long as they're intended in good faith. I'm not sensing that here.[/oog]


[oog]
mtgman rode in here and made an unprovoked dick comment that I rather suspect he's been saving up since Day One of M5. I'm a pretty even keeled guy, generally, but getting sucker punched out of nowhere gets my back up.

Nonetheless, out of respect for the game and the other players in it, I will withdraw from this argument and will not engage further in it.
[/oog]
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #491 on Sept 14, 2007, 7:27am »
[Quote]


Sept 14, 2007, 6:55am, storyteller0910 wrote:
Well, OK, you're absolutely right. But here's the problem. To me, there are two kinds of behaviors that might be characterized as "scummy":

1. Behaviors that seem to betray the possession of extra information;

and

2. Behaviors that seem to be attempting to manufacture a particular outcome artificially.

The problem is that both of these could apply to scum, or serial killers, or pro-town power roles. It seems like the hazard of chasing scum is going to be that the same methods you use to root them out might also root out a pro-town power role here and there. If there is a way around this, I'd love to hear it.


What I'm saying is, I think we should focus on, not just the two main points, but whatever else twinges people's radars for whatever reason, possibly including things like "he seems too defensive" or "he seems full of crap" or whatever. Yes, this very well can lead to hitting pro-town power roles, but that's an inevitable consequence of any strategy; otherwise, mafia would be a "solved" game with an established winning strategy.

This is a bit of an extreme example, but I think it'll get my point across. Let's pretend there is a role called the "stow away". If he lives to the end, regardless of who wins, he wins too; otherwise, he has no powers. Now let's say he makes a slip akin to dnooman's (which a win condition like that might appear like). It doesn't say anything about his alignment and, in fact, it would be a bad idea to lynch him because it'd be a waste of a lynch.

Now let's pretend that the role doesn't exist, but someone is gosh-darn-tootin' sure that it does. They see the same slip, and now "Hey, look at dnooman's slip; he must be the stow away." And they decide not to lynch him when he could actually be something else entirely, and possibly nefarious.

Essentially, I'm just saying that we shouldn't be using speculation about what roles may or may not exist as primary evidence for lynching people.


As far as dnooman's slip goes. I see where people are coming from and, if this were an open set-up game, I'd be inclined to agree. However, imagine he's vanilla town, and all he knows is...well, his name and how he wins. It certainly feels a lot more isolating than knowing you, for instance, have a doctor and a detective and whatever else to help you acheive victory.

That said, absent of other evidence, I cannot justify voting for dnooman.
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #492 on Sept 14, 2007, 7:31am »
[Quote]


Sept 14, 2007, 6:54am, CatInASuit wrote:
Idle Thoughts: Your jovial interplay with Roosh, followed by backing off has struck me as scummy. This may change in the future.


*shrugs*
I threw out a vote based on how I felt at the time. Reading more of his posts made me rethink my stance. That's it.
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #493 on Sept 14, 2007, 7:32am »
[Quote]


Sept 14, 2007, 6:22am, drainbead wrote:

Sept 14, 2007, 5:58am, Idle Thoughts wrote:


Snipped.

This pings my meter sorta heavy. Based on what my role PM said, I know the name of the bad guys/scum in this game. Why don't you? Makes me think that you are faking that you don't know or you are of a different group than I. Either way, I'm finding it suddenly hard to believe it could be Town.

I'm pretty sure the baddies are called the Alliance.
I've never seen an episode either so you can't use the "but I've never seen an episode" excuse with me.

So the question remains, how did you not know the name of the scum group?


I agree, that's a pretty telling comment. That having been said, it could also be due to a cursory glance at the role PM combined with an unfamiliarity with the show. The only reason I remember that scum = Alliance is because I kept thinking about WoW, where I played Horde, and thought it was funny that the Alliance is the bad guys. Otherwise, I may have forgotten that point.

Nonetheless, I doubt that's the case, and combined with the earlier vote on you for annoyance reasons, I think you may be on to something. FOS Pygmyrugger.
'

I also am agreeing with this comment.
Because on Night 1, Dnoo was talking, and Diomedes posted talking about "the alliance" and the game and such explaining things to dnoo. (reply #71). It pinged my Townie meter, but also my TMI meter, as it's best to keep that info secret. Like i wouldn't have mentioned the alliance, but instead waited for Pygmy to have a chance to "prove' he knows who the baddies are. (then again, people don't like secrets).
And that's also why I told Diomedes to zip it. (well, i was much nicer about it.) It's one reason I'm less suspicious of Diomedes but more of Dnoo.

But [color=Orange][/Pygmy gets to now be added to the list of FoScolor]
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #494 on Sept 14, 2007, 7:40am »
[Quote]

Despite the fact that we never officialized any plan for voting, I think we've gotten into run-off territory just from the pattern of voting...at this point it looks like Roosh and dnooman are the only ones accumulating votes.

The problem is, I'm not getting a full out scummy vibe from either of them. Roosh has garnered votes for what I believe is being "eager townie with a bad idea." He's responded to arguments, acknowledged that his behavior and some of his posts were bad, and has become humble and pious. Dnooman's garnered votes from a night slip asking if it was every man for himself, then garnered more votes when he makes sarcastic replies instead of mounting a defense for himself. The problem is, unless I'm mistaken, dnooman responded to the accusations in an earlier post in the Day, and I don't really think he can explain any more thoroughly than he did. And honestly, I highly doubt a scum would be so daft as to roll their eyes and say "yeah, I'm scum you retards, vote for me" and leave that as their only response. In fact, I think Roosh's "I'm sorry guys, I realized my idea was bad, please forgive me" humble approach is MORE like a scum trying to get back in the good graces of town and hide.

So summary:

Roosh: I don't think his actions are scummy, but his humble defense twinges my scumdar.
Dnooman: I think his actions are scummy, but his sarcastic/annoyed defense twinges my not-scumdar.

I'm not comfortable with voting for either just yet, mostly because I'm also not comfortable with how rapidly the votes accumulated on both of them. There's something fishy I can't quite put my finger on, so I'm going to leave my vote on Mad for now, and see if any new arguments or posts shed some new light on the current vote leaders.
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #495 on Sept 14, 2007, 7:43am »
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This fifteen votes or no lynch thing kinda bites. Like I said before, it seems to force a huge group to all vote for one person. How is information gotten from that. Okay, so if dnooman really is scum, great. But if he's not, then what? Then there are fifteen possible players who COULD be scum. That doesn't narrow it down too well, in my opinion. How can we distingish anyone in this game when everyone's going to feel forced to vote for the same person? What if they don't want to? Will they be looked at as scum the next Day if they didn't place a vote? The whole set up is just wacky, I feel.

My own feelings are an example. I don't want to vote for Roosh (anymore) or dnooman as I feel more on the side that they may be town (or misunderstood at least which is enough for me). But then again, I don't want to have a no lynch either. I can only surmise that there are probably others (and I'm talking REAL others as opposed to those who are just faking it) who feel the same way...and in the end, I fear that we'll all have to vote for one person each Day just to have a lynch. It would make it really easy for scum to hide in those ranks. When you HAVE TO HAVE fifteen people or thirteen or even eleven people all on one person just to get a lynch, it's going to be easy to hide one or two scum in each of those bandwagons without much reprecussion because it might be like this Tomorrow:

"Okay, blah was Town, who all voted for blah?"
Fifteen people: "I did!"
""FOS" on every one of you! Yeahhh! You're all scummy."
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #496 on Sept 14, 2007, 7:43am »
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Sept 14, 2007, 7:09am, Spaceman Spiff wrote:
[oog]Seriously, this is WAY too early to be getting as upset with eachother as I'm seeing Storyteller and Mtgman. I don't mind personal attacks as long as they're intended in good faith. I'm not sensing that here.[/oog]
You would feel really, REALLY uncomfortable sitting in on a night of Magic with my playgroup then. The trashtalk flies hard and fast. Somehow, at the end of the night, we're all still friends. Very good friends in fact.

Enjoy,
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #497 on Sept 14, 2007, 7:48am »
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Hey Atarus,
I'm not being humble. I AM saying my ideas were bad, and that yes, not the best. But I'm being nice about my IDEAS. Because I honestly believe that with tweaking it could work. So i'm willing to learn from the others about it.

As for voting for me, that's fine with me. I just want to see good arguements put up against me, so that I can see who's on the level and who's the sneaky bastards who are just throwing votes at an easy target (THATS A big reason i'm voting for Dnooman. Both him and Zeriel voted for me in a quick "you look scummy" post w/ no backing it up. Zeriel at least posted his ideas. Dnooman just posted a sarcastic defense and ignored the fact that i've been calling him out to explain his votes on me, just stating "oh it's all been stated by everyone else". THAT's the kind of vote i don't like, and it looks downright scummy to me.

That's why I'm def. voting for Dnooman, that and I am the dude that pointed out his slip-up, so it'd be scummy of me just to smudge a guy and run away. I'll step up to my accusations and I'll be responsible for them.

(And dismissing comments sarcastically without defending yourself is a TOWN thing to do??? That's new to me. I'm all about the Defensivness, and showing information. If i gotta prove I'm townie, then I'll prove I'm townie. I'm not gonna waste time without putting SOME new information out there. Because that's just building up towards no-lynches, and all that crap that you all discussed before I came along. Yes, I said i like secrets, but when it comes down to playing the game, we gotta be on Top of this stuff. Being evasive is NOT pro-town.)
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #498 on Sept 14, 2007, 7:50am »
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::BLOWS MOD WHISTLE::

FLAG ON THE PLAY!

Story/MtgMan

Both of you walk away from the game for a while. Give it an hour, give it more if you need to.

You are both comming dangerously close to unsportsmanlike conduct and I will have none of it.

Even if this is not serious, even if it is all in good fun, keep it clean guys. It is WAY too early in the game to start having these kinds of flare ups.

Rein it in guys.


Seriously, I was gone for 20 minutes! Can't leave you alone for a second.
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #499 on Sept 14, 2007, 7:53am »
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Sept 14, 2007, 7:43am, Idle Thoughts wrote:
This fifteen votes or no lynch thing kinda bites.

I agree with you. But it's a fairly common standard of practice on Mafiascum. The way the players compensate though, is alot of them don't care about thier day 1 votes, and in fact bandwagonning becomes the norm. I'm not a fan of it, but that's just how it goes. They do what I proposed, they find a target and just press them up against the wall, lynch, then wait for the next day. Some players don't even show up till 2-3 Days into the game to examine the voting patterns.

The problem is, is this is the SD. You Guys, and me too, have all been used to analyzing from Day 1 the posts of people. The >50% thing is a way to discourage it, and to actually SPEED UP the game, as votes fly loosely unless a good defense is warrented.

that's why i knew that this was gonna be a painful game for the Dopers. I tried to make my suggestions on how to make it go quicker, but yeah, it's a bad idea if you want to make every vote count.

I don't see a solution though, and I have a feeling the first few days will be sloppy. It's just the nature of the beast.
: shrug:
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #500 on Sept 14, 2007, 7:54am »
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FTR, particularly in my catch up just now, I started getting suspicious of Pygmy, and Idle pointed out the main reason why by the time I got around to it. So he's up there on my suspicion list.

I also have a difficult to substantiate suspicion of zuma. He just seems very agreeable, and prodding suspicions without adding anything.

I'm also mildly suspicous of atarus and diomedes, but that's because their town strikes me as insincere. Sorry, I can't justify it more than that at this time. I certainly will not vote for either of them either.

I'm unwilling at this time to pry into the storyteller/mad pairing, simply because I can come up with good reasons (even if fairly contrived) for any possibly combination of the pairings of their alignments, with the most likely being simply that Mad misremembered, and they're both town.

I also just plain don't see the votes for Idle either. His hardheadedness about a rule that was, to me and others fairly clear, is fairly consistent with his play. IOW, considering his play has changed little in the three games in which I've seen him, that would mean it gives pretty much zero information entropy by which to discern his alignment.
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #501 on Sept 14, 2007, 7:56am »
[Quote]


Sept 14, 2007, 7:53am, Roosh wrote:

Sept 14, 2007, 7:43am, Idle Thoughts wrote:
This fifteen votes or no lynch thing kinda bites.

I agree with you. But it's a fairly common standard of practice on Mafiascum. The way the players compensate though, is alot of them don't care about thier day 1 votes, and in fact bandwagonning becomes the norm. I'm not a fan of it, but that's just how it goes. They do what I proposed, they find a target and just press them up against the wall, lynch, then wait for the next day. Some players don't even show up till 2-3 Days into the game to examine the voting patterns.

The problem is, is this is the SD. You Guys, and me too, have all been used to analyzing from Day 1 the posts of people. The >50% thing is a way to discourage it, and to actually SPEED UP the game, as votes fly loosely unless a good defense is warrented.

that's why i knew that this was gonna be a painful game for the Dopers. I tried to make my suggestions on how to make it go quicker, but yeah, it's a bad idea if you want to make every vote count.

I don't see a solution though, and I have a feeling the first few days will be sloppy. It's just the nature of the beast.
: shrug:


[oog]Roosh, you are a genius. You have just given me an excellent idea. This has nothing to do with anything in the game, though, or even of my current view of you, so don't bother feeling safe. :P[/oog]
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #502 on Sept 14, 2007, 7:58am »
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That's what I'm here for.
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #503 on Sept 14, 2007, 8:00am »
[Quote]


Sept 14, 2007, 7:43am, Idle Thoughts wrote:
This fifteen votes or no lynch thing kinda bites. Like I said before, it seems to force a huge group to all vote for one person. How is information gotten from that. Okay, so if dnooman really is scum, great. But if he's not, then what? Then there are fifteen possible players who COULD be scum. That doesn't narrow it down too well, in my opinion. How can we distingish anyone in this game when everyone's going to feel forced to vote for the same person? What if they don't want to? Will they be looked at as scum the next Day if they didn't place a vote? The whole set up is just wacky, I feel.

My own feelings are an example. I don't want to vote for Roosh (anymore) or dnooman as I feel more on the side that they may be town (or misunderstood at least which is enough for me). But then again, I don't want to have a no lynch either. I can only surmise that there are probably others (and I'm talking REAL others as opposed to those who are just faking it) who feel the same way...and in the end, I fear that we'll all have to vote for one person each Day just to have a lynch. It would make it really easy for scum to hide in those ranks. When you HAVE TO HAVE fifteen people or thirteen or even eleven people all on one person just to get a lynch, it's going to be easy to hide one or two scum in each of those bandwagons without much reprecussion because it might be like this Tomorrow:

"Okay, blah was Town, who all voted for blah?"
Fifteen people: "I did!"
""FOS" on every one of you! Yeahhh! You're all scummy."


But isn't that how the games on mafiascum usually go? Somehow they survive. I'd imagine as this game goes on, we can figure out a lot more about our fellow players than you'd think. It may be harder for us to root out scum based on voting patterns alone, but I think the additional time it takes to get a lynch will balance that out.
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #504 on Sept 14, 2007, 8:04am »
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Quote:
said[/i]. It doesn't seem to matter to anyone that Mad has completely fabricated a reason to come after me - I mean, made one up out of whole cloth. What happened to looking at and evaluating the reasons behind each player's actions? Has that completely ceased to be relevant now?




Story, I know you didn't want to cover this anymore (and due to time differences this is going to show up about 2 pages after) but you say no one is looking at what Mad actually said, but you actually quoted the part of my post where I said I thought Mad's accusations were a bit light on. I.E. I am paying attention to what was said and I don't think there is any basis for Mad's accusations.

Which makes me suspicious of Mad. Hence his FOSing. Maybe this is just my misinterpreting the tone of your posts, but to me it seemed you came back at Mad very aggressively. Which was something I wanted to remember so I FOS'd you for the sole reason of ticking a box in my mind to remember the exchange for later review if necessary.


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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #505 on Sept 14, 2007, 8:06am »
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You would feel really, REALLY uncomfortable sitting in on a night of Magic with my playgroup then. The trashtalk flies hard and fast. Somehow, at the end of the night, we're all still friends. Very good friends in fact.[/quote]

[oog]Well, that's the thing. It's a big different in person. With my friends I throw around a LOT of insults, some even pretty vicious (like racist or sexist ones). If one of your friends said something along those lines, you'd obviously know they didn't mean it, otherwise, why would they be friends with you if they don't like your race/nationality/sex/etc.?

It's different here, I think, because, for the most part, we're complete strangers (with a notable exception or two) and the leeway you get among friends and from visual/audial cues of sarcasm is simply not there.

Either way, in my estimation, it appeared not to be genuinely not out of anger, and not just guys beating their chests.

...I dunno...[/oog]
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #506 on Sept 14, 2007, 8:15am »
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Yeah. I'm going to get lynched soon regardless of what I do. So, at least I can get out the few pieces of info I do know out there.

My name is Sheriff Bourne. Don't let that mislead you, it not a cop role. I have no special powers. I am an Alliance citizen, however, I am a vanilla crewperson with the alignment "crew". My win condition requires all Alliance to be dead.

Yep, Alliance citizen, crew alignment, I win if all the Alliance are dead.

It was confusing enough to at least one other person, because a clarification PM was sent out before I had even seen my role.

If you don't think that is confusing, especially given the closed game scenario, you are much smarter than I. The clarification PM did make it clear that Alliance are scum, and crew are town. My initial post was thinking out loud, not a scum slip. Also, I had previously stated that I had only been vanilla town once before, which is not true. I was thinking of M2 where I was killed on the night start. Why M3 didn't come to mind is beyond me.

Sorry about my level of frustration/confusion, but it seems that I'm not alone.

Why am I claiming already? I only know one person's alignment (my own), and I see a townie headed for a lynch. At the current pace of the game (farking redonkulous), I could get hammered before I get home from work EASILY, not having any time to claim at the last minute.

So there you have it. I cannot possibly be more honest or open. I understand that a lot of my fellow townies will not be pleased by my claiming, but it's a %100 verified move on my part, and any inaction on my part could very well lead to an early townie lynch.

Go town.
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #507 on Sept 14, 2007, 8:18am »
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Sept 14, 2007, 7:48am, Roosh wrote:
Hey Atarus,
I'm not being humble. I AM saying my ideas were bad, and that yes, not the best. But I'm being nice about my IDEAS. Because I honestly believe that with tweaking it could work. So i'm willing to learn from the others about it.


Okay, so maybe humble wasn't the best word to describe it. I understand that you're going with the flow and you want to get input on your idea to make it work better. But I guess it's just that when I read through, it seemed like you kept bringing up the fact that you KNOW your idea is bad, and you KNOW that you made a mistake when you said that you wanted Spaceman to role-claim, and you haven't gotten a vote in a while, yet you've posted a repeated defense at least twice since your last vote. I guess maybe it's because people are still voicing suspicions of you even though you've said you understand your idea had flaws, but if they're still suspicious after you said it once, I don't think they'll be less suspicious of you after you've said it twice.


Sept 14, 2007, 7:48am, Roosh wrote:
(And dismissing comments sarcastically without defending yourself is a TOWN thing to do??? That's new to me. I'm all about the Defensivness, and showing information. If i gotta prove I'm townie, then I'll prove I'm townie. I'm not gonna waste time without putting SOME new information out there. Because that's just building up towards no-lynches, and all that crap that you all discussed before I came along. Yes, I said i like secrets, but when it comes down to playing the game, we gotta be on Top of this stuff. Being evasive is NOT pro-town.)


Again, I guess what I said didn't really come across too clearly. Dnooman didn't come across to me as scum, he came across to me as frustrated. And I think a frustrated scum wouldn't show his frustration to everybody in the town, instead he'd actually TRY to defend himself. Maybe I'm wrong in assuming this, but I'm hoping that comes across as clearer than what I previously said.


Sept 14, 2007, 7:54am, Spaceman Spiff wrote:
I'm also mildly suspicous of atarus and diomedes, but that's because their town strikes me as insincere. Sorry, I can't justify it more than that at this time. I certainly will not vote for either of them either.


Okay, Idle said this earlier and I was like *shrug*, okay. But now two people have said that I'm suspicious but they don't know why. I know I can't force an explanation out of either of you, but it's unnerving when people start saying you're suspicious but they can't figure out why. ???
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #508 on Sept 14, 2007, 8:28am »
[Quote]

Okay, now getting back to a couple of posts that I highlight for response on my catch-up...


Sept 13, 2007, 11:42am, Roosh wrote:

Sept 13, 2007, 8:13am, drainbead wrote:

Things that make me think Roosh is scum:
--Asking BLAM to roleclaim. Why on earth? BLAM has exactly ONE vote on him, and that's from Roosh. Why would he need to roleclaim? Who would that possibly benefit at this point in the game, with the voting playing out the way he is? Honestly, I could have thrown out his entire Bad Idea Post as just another Bad Idea Post had that not been at the end of it.

-Okay. I shouldn't have said "RoleClaim" because a few people have jumped on this. What I'm basically trying to say is this:
When I vote for a person IN THIS GAME I will be voting for them because I find them quite suspicious and I want them to RoleClaim. However, what does that really mean?
--It's just the way I'm gonna post the fact that I'm voting for someone.

Obviously If he roleclaimed JUST because of me, that'd be stupid, and that was not my intention. At that point, I was quite excited, and I did say "RoleClaim!" but what I should have just said is "I think you're suspicious! I Vote for You! And left it at that, with the "Role claim when you've got lots of votes on you!" implied rather than explicitly stated.

So yeah. That's my bad.
I can see I'm getting lots of votes, I view each of them as not only a vote against me, but exactly the same thing that I just did to BM- Each of those votes is pretty much stating the same thing "I think you're suspicious, I want a role claim out of you" Though I think Zeriel's the only one to explicitly say that, I am Assuming the rest of you are saying that as well. Because it goes without saying. Which is what I should have done. :-/ Not said it.


This looks like backpedaling to me, and I ain't buying it. This whole thing about implying that you want a role claim every time you vote and you just foolishly said it out loud is no where CLOSE to how what you actually said comes across.


Quote:
And with that
BlasterMaster, I'd like a RoleClaim out of you. Because you seem the most suspicious to me all day about wanting my info.

So I'll vote for you. But I'll change it once if i hear a reasonable claim.
Vote BlasterMaster


Mind you, this comes in the very same post in which you talk about how pro-town it is to get people's names.

1) First of all, your plan talks about getting 2-3 people with the most votes and asking for their name. Then, you vote for me (with spurious reasoning, nonetheless) and ask, not for my Name, but my Role, when I'm not in the 2-3 leading people. This is WHOLELY inconsistent with the plan you outline in the very same post.

2) This is just straight hogwash. This isn't your first game, and you never said anything previously about about asking for role claims. This stinks of "oh crap, I humped up and got caught, how can I make it look like a brain fart?".


Put this together, and I go full circle back to my original point when I voted for you. I think you're fishing for roles, and you came up with this scheme to try to get information about roles without asking for them explicitly, and then you humped up and asked for my role instead of my name (a classic Freudian slip).
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 Re: Day 1
« Reply #509 on Sept 14, 2007, 8:31am »
[Quote]


Sept 14, 2007, 8:18am, atarus wrote:

Sept 14, 2007, 7:54am, Spaceman Spiff wrote:
I'm also mildly suspicous of atarus and diomedes, but that's because their town strikes me as insincere. Sorry, I can't justify it more than that at this time. I certainly will not vote for either of them either.


Okay, Idle said this earlier and I was like *shrug*, okay. But now two people have said that I'm suspicious but they don't know why. I know I can't force an explanation out of either of you, but it's unnerving when people start saying you're suspicious but they can't figure out why. ???


FTR, I'm voicing my difficult to articulate suspicion in the event that I'm not the only one with that suspicion, but someone has some ideas that may give me an avenue for investigation. Frankly, I was unaware Idle had said anything similar (no surprise, with so many posts to sift through).
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