Re: Day 1 « Reply #1020 on Sept 18, 2007, 7:42am »
And here's what I learned from all this. zuma's slip came in 'twixt dnooman and Roosh[b]'s role claims, at a time when we were discussing those more than what [b]zuma said in a one-sentence post. I remember seeing the slip at the time and thinking that zuma must have been confused in the same way that dnooman was confused. I still think that. If zuma was an Alliance citizen and that meant that he was scum, you'd think he'd realize that Alliance citizen =/= vanilla townie. I can only presume, based on the last game I played in which I was scum, that scum got a link to the scum boards in their PM. If that's the case, then there's no way that zuma could have thought that he was a vanilla townie when he was actually scum. But I must say, that Post 568 is alarming, especially considering that 568-584 were all zuma commenting on the role confusion, and then the next post was zuma asking to be replaced. Could he have been confused about his role the whole time?
I was initially drawn to all the talk about Reavers, but if zuma was a Reaver, would Post 568 have happened?
Since so many of us missed 568 in all the noise, could the rest of you go back and read it and tell me what you think of it? Am I drawing the wrong conclusions?
I had the feeling that Zuma left because he was taking heat, and didn't want to lose the game for his small faction (read: scum).
Ok, this isn't the type of thing I am going to do a lot but I really hate this particular flavor of metagaming. (nothing against you Dnooman, but if you are thinking it others probably are as well)
Zuma subbed out because he felt he had accidentally recieved potentially game breaking information and didn't want to ruin the game for everyone else.
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Re: Day 1 « Reply #1022 on Sept 18, 2007, 7:48am »
I have no idea what zuma was thinking, but because the role of Ramiro is also stated to be an Alliance citizen, he might have been confused about his own loyalties.
Until NAF mod-confirmed that Alliance citizens are townies, I also thought that either 1) dnooman was lying or 2) the mods were being utter bastards because logically he would have to die by his own win condition in order to win.
Re: Day 1 « Reply #1023 on Sept 18, 2007, 8:13am »
And here's the dotchan post history. --Post 678, the hi all post. --Post 679, a vote/unvote/FOS list for the day --Post 681, a couple of minor corrections to that list --Post 701, says that she does not have access to the Forbidden Boards, says that her disbelief of dnooman's claim has been rendered moot, FOS on Roosh, says that what someone thinks might be a "safe" name could be a name that the mods gave to scum as cover, FOS on MTS, story, and mtgman for fighting earlier. --Post 702, annoyance with filters --Post 761, says that Roosh is an uncontested power role, which is separate from whether or not Inara is a good guy in the game. Points out that technically Inara is a citizen of the Alliance. Says that dnooman is confirmed, FOR NOW. --Post 789, says that Mad's mason claim was convenient since no sane mason would counter. Suggests a mass name claim, then argues against it. --Post 797, says that the zuma/Idle argument shouldn't be held against her, votes sinjin --Post 801, suspects Roosh because he's acted scummy, his roleclaim is difficult to test, and Inara isn't guaranteed "town (or Crew or whatever)". Is annoyed at the people who said their win conditions were the same as Roosh and dnooman. --Post 807, talks about how anyone who talked about their win condition is outing themselves as a vanilla townie, and giving the scum a smaller pool to pick from to nab power roles. --Post 817, second verse same as the first. Also adds that those claiming vanilla townie win conditions may be scum hiding so as not to draw the watchful eye of a cop, and to leverage that townie cred later when leading bandwagons. --Post 830, points out that sinjin said he was "from a town" but is still crew. Unvotes sinjin. (In that quote from sinjin, he is the one to point out that he has a minor power, which I notice has later been attributed by someone to dotchan. Close, since it was a quote in a dotchan post--just thought someone would like to know that's where it came from.) --Post 834, argues with Idle that dnooman's claim is Crew, and he's just a citizen of the Alliance. "Meaning Crew is most likely what the town are called in this game." FOS on Idle. (Another aside, this comes right in the middle of the Mad mason debacle) --Post 861, is upset that her using town and crew interchangeably is drawing suspicion. Votes Diomedes because she thinks he's trying to start another bandwagon. --Post 868, says that she was using the terms interchangeably so as not to give more info to scum. Claims vanilla crewmember, crew-aligned. --Post 870, says she's against vanilla crew claiming unless they're facing a lynch, to give the scum a larger pool to pick the power roles from. --Post 875, says that she does not think that crew = vanilla town, says that she thinks vanilla crewperson = vanilla town. --Post 876, name claims Ramiro, vanilla crewperson, wins when Alliance are dead. --Post 913, tells story that she claimed because she thought she was next on the block, and wanted the town to look elsewhere. --Post 987, FOS on Roosh for voting her to confirm her claim. --Post 992, is angry that people are voting for her to confirm her claim. --Post 1008, admits jumping the gun on her role claim, is amused that she's going to die anyway because it's not confirmable. --Post 1010, wonders where Hal is. --Post 1015, says she has no powers beyond those of vanilla town. (aside--it was dnooman who thought she had sinjin's minor power) --Post 1022, says that the role of Ramiro is also stated to be an Alliance citizen.
Re: Day 1 « Reply #1024 on Sept 18, 2007, 8:28am »
My big issues with dotchan are: --Post 834. What's with the "most likely"? Either it is or it isn't, and if you are one you know it is. That kind of prevarication sounds like someone who is either unsure of their role (unlikely) or trying to hedge her bets as to what a townie is. --Post 868 and 870, in which she first claims vanilla town and then says that vanilla town should not claim vanilla town, in the span of two posts. Six posts later she name-claims as well. Why do exactly what you say was a bad idea six posts later (and two posts before) you said it was a bad idea?
I'd like to see explanations for those two things, dotchan. It seems that most people initially based on the fact that Ramiro isn't in the 'verse, and I think they've sort of let these two things slide a bit (I see some mention of them from BLAM and Idle, but it's just one or two posts in all the noise). I see those two points as scummier than having an unverifiable name, which wouldn't be something that you could control one way or the other.
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Re: Day 1 « Reply #1025 on Sept 18, 2007, 8:44am »
No, I said vanilla town shouldn't claim unless they believe they were in danger of being lynched, which I thought I was. I was fairly sure the bandwagon would come rolling my way (because this was pretty much how I ended up on the block a couple of times in the Psychopaths game) so I decided to claim; as I mentioned above, in retrospect I probably could have afforded to wait a few more hours, maybe even a full day. I also figured that in the case that I do die, my rolename would take some sails out of Roosh's "mass nameclaim ASAP" plan, an idea that I believe should be tabled until we've got a couple more Days' worth of action under our belts.
Re: Day 1 « Reply #1026 on Sept 18, 2007, 8:44am »
I want to vote for dotchan because of this line:
Quote:
"Meaning Crew is most likely what the town are called in this game."
and zuma was my first vote anyway. However before I do I'd like a
VOTE COUNT PLEASE
so as to not be the 'hammering' vote while so many people are still not back from the weekend or work or dinner and can have their say. See I have learned something, I now know what hammering is.
Re: Day 1 « Reply #1030 on Sept 18, 2007, 9:00am »
unvote Diomedes, vote dotchan
I just can't see that you thought you were in danger of being lynched at that point, after having re-read the thread. That, combined with the "most likely," which I thought was the bigger slip and you didn't even address, is causing me to vote for you.
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Re: Day 1 « Reply #1032 on Sept 18, 2007, 9:06am »
Look, all I know from my role PM is that there are two factions, Crew and Alliance, and I'm Crew. I don't know what other factions there may or may not be out there, so I hedged my bet a bit. (Plus I was thinking about the wording Roosh's Inara claim.)
If it wasn't for the last minute, nothing would ever get done.
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Re: Day 1 « Reply #1033 on Sept 18, 2007, 9:09am »
I still have an open mind on the Dotchan case. My thoughts on it as I read through first time was that there was something fundamentally wrong, but I couldn't put my finger on it. On the other hand, Drainead's case was a bit more coherent.
Right now I'm leaving my options open while I slowly - very slowly - reread Day 1. Not much more to be one quarter through.
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Re: Day 1 « Reply #1034 on Sept 18, 2007, 9:10am »
Oh and by the way I googled like crazy looking for Hector Sanchez and just Sanchez with Firefly, Serenity and Joss Whedon. And looked at Whedon's biography, and checked at the IMDB and could not find a single reference except for a couple of crew members who's first names were not Hector. I even thought for a while he might be one of the crazy fans that were doing the guerrilla marketing to get a new movie made. (Hoping I haven't offended any crazy guerrilla marketing fans). I even went back and looked at Buffy stuff to see if he was in that verse.
So if Mad didn't think to specifically google Sanchez brothers he would have never found it.
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Re: Day 1 « Reply #1035 on Sept 18, 2007, 9:15am »
For fuck's sake, people, at least get some sort of vote in!
FOS anyone who doesn't vote in the next 24 hours.
At this point it looks like it's either dotchan or the Green Party candidate.
I won't be changing unless it comes down to the wire. Something about the dotchan vote just really feels wrong. I don't know what. It's not just that I don't think she's scum, as accidentally hitting crew is pretty high probability on Day 1. Maybe it's just I feel it won't yield much useful information, other than to end this Day and see what a death notice tells us.
But I'll be truthful and say I don't have a good alternative.
This closed setup has given us the worst Day 1 ever. But I'm thinking things will get better. We're just really starved for information right now.
One more topic I just wanted to note :
From the game setup, way back on page 1:
Quote:
. Of those that return, some of them seem to be perfectly normal, while others are acting oddly, not quite themselves. And not a one of them can remember where they were (some don't even realize they were missing!).
I seriously suspect this means we have some secret roles going on. Some of us don't know what's been done to us. Something to think about during the Night.
I have no idea what zuma was thinking, but because the role of Ramiro is also stated to be an Alliance citizen, he might have been confused about his own loyalties.
I thought you said it was Vanilla Town? I wouldn't call Alliance Citizen Vanilla Town...I'd call it Alliance Citizen. Hence why I was asking you a million times over "who is claiming Vanilla Town?" when dnooman and sinjin, if they are to be believed, claimed Alliance Citizen.
In my mind, Alliance Citizen =/ Vanilla Town
Should it?
And yeah, I do realize that Alliance Citizen may be like the Non-believers were to the Believers in Mafia Five but that doesn't answer why you didn't say you were specifically Alliance Citizen before, dotchan.
Quote:
Until NAF mod-confirmed that Alliance citizens are townies, I also thought that either 1) dnooman was lying or 2) the mods were being utter bastards because logically he would have to die by his own win condition in order to win.
Which is why I believe dnooman. Since he was, literally, the very FIRST to come out with that, I don't see how it's easy that he could be lying. He'd have to have that specific wording in order to ask that question and be confused. Consequently, I feel Roosh (after dnooman came out as "Alliance Citizen") misunderstood the same thing I did when we saw the word "Alliance" in there. This says to me he, too, would have to have the wording I saw.
I also figured that in the case that I do die, my rolename would take some sails out of Roosh's "mass nameclaim ASAP" plan, an idea that I believe should be tabled until we've got a couple more Days' worth of action under our belts.
I dunno. All of this talk has done a few good things. Due to how people have said things, what they know, and based on what my own PM says, there are a good three or four people that I feel really are Town more and more as the game goes on. So while you think "well all this stuff is narrowing it down for scum", on the other end it's narrowing the choices for SCUM down for us.
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Re: Day 1 « Reply #1037 on Sept 18, 2007, 9:31am »
I was using the terms Alliance citizen, vanilla town, and vanilla crew interchangably because that is my own role. Sorry if I made things more confusing for everybody.
It's so frustrating when everything I post is sounding like a scum tell. (And now I know why the temptation to use size 72 font is so large.)
I thought you said it was Vanilla Town? I wouldn't call Alliance Citizen Vanilla Town...I'd call it Alliance Citizen. Hence why I was asking you a million times over "who is claiming Vanilla Town?" when dnooman and sinjin, if they are to be believed, claimed Alliance Citizen.
In my mind, Alliance Citizen =/ Vanilla Town
Should it?
Yes. It should.
dnooman claimed Sheriff Bourne. He is a citizen of the Alliance in the same sense that I am a citizen of the United Kingdom - born into it and owing allegiance to its sovereign power. (Or maybe he's a resident of a state taken over by conquest, but that's neither here nor there.)
The vast majority, if not all, players will be a citizen of the Alliance in this sense. Even those who are crew members.
Just because someone is an Alliance citizen it does not mean they are Alliance aligned.
And I do not consider the fact that people cannot unearth Dotchan's claimed name as a Firefly character to be grounds for lynching her - or anyone else for that matter. So unless I find better evidence, I will not be voting for Dottie.
[Exception : I will consider it if we're at 14 votes and the alternative is no lynch, which I don't really agree with either.]
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Re: Day 1 « Reply #1039 on Sept 18, 2007, 10:04am »
My vote is currently on Diomedes for his "other scum" comment.
Dotchan's "most likely" comment also looks telling. I may change my vote, but I will wait until more of the not-currently-voting people have checked in (by my reckoning, 10 people have not yet voted).
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Re: Day 1 « Reply #1040 on Sept 18, 2007, 10:37am »
Yes, I admit, I do not currently have a vote placed. I unvoted Mad when he claimed, and have subsequently not found a target I'm comfortable with voting for.
As far as I can see at this stage, it looks like Dotchan is rapidly headed for the airlock. This is a really hard decision because I don't like the speed with which Dotchan's wagon came together plus I'm inclined to believe her claim.
However, we need a lynch on Day 1, and at this stage I just can't see anyone else garnering the required number of votes unless someone makes a monumental error.
So, with apologies to you Dotchan, because I have a strong suspicion you are town, I have to Vote Dotchan.
Re: Day 1 « Reply #1041 on Sept 18, 2007, 11:00am »
3 to lynch, now?
I'm getting a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. Not because I don't think she's scummy (or at least, has as good a shot at being scum as any of my other suspicions), but because if she's town, I'm afraid tomorrow might be shorter than today. ::edges away from airlock::
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Re: Day 1 « Reply #1042 on Sept 18, 2007, 11:15am »
I have a funny feeling in the pit of my stomach too, until I remind myself that this is still just Day 1, and I think the feeling in my stomach is an artifact of the extended Day as opposed to sensing pending bad news. In my experience it has been rare to hit scum on Day 1.
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Re: Day 1 « Reply #1043 on Sept 18, 2007, 11:21am »
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Re: Day 1 « Reply #1044 on Sept 18, 2007, 11:22am »
So, how many people are actually lynching me just so there wouldn't be a No Lynch?
Doesn't that make absolutely no sense?
You're risking a mislynch when there's guarenteed at least one townie death toNight. Yeah, we might be able to afford a couple of mislynches early, but why has everybody pretty much stopped talking?
The deadline is the 20th. Please please PLEASE continue the discussion. This silence is bad for the Crew!
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Re: Day 1 « Reply #1045 on Sept 18, 2007, 11:22am »
I was hoping that someone else would be the one to bring this up, but it looks like I have to. Compare Dot's claim with your own role, notice anything common 'twixt the two, like specifically?
I really hate to do this "I see something, guess what it is" crap, but we've almost used up the syntax similarities that the PMs can yield. Once it's out there on the board, it can be used by scum to false claim. If it's left unspoken and someone or some people can state that they see it too, then at least the scum have to guess.
So, does anyone else with the same role as I, see the identical wording I'm talking about? If so, please post that you see it as well.
*sigh* I didn't think I'd have to claim, too, on Day One, but better me than a pro-crew power role, right?
I'm Ramiro, Vanilla Crewperson. I'm aligned with the Crew. I win when all Alliance (i.e. scum, not the normal citizens who are just trying to go about their business) are dead.
I haven't watched Serenity and I only know the vague basics of the show. (It's referred to somewhat sarcastically in the other message boards I frequent as either "Live Action Outlaw Star" or "Live Action Cowboy Bebop".)
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Re: Day 1 « Reply #1047 on Sept 18, 2007, 11:30am »
Dnooman, I appreciate the effort, but I think Day One is far too early to reveal all of the precious little information we Vanilla Crewpeople have on our side. (Alas, if only I wasn't so jumpy, I would have been able to get my point across more clearly.)
Besides, I mentioned this before, but I think NAF and Kat genericized the role PMs enough that we can't play games like this (because I tried to do it in Psycopaths, but none of the other townies picked up on it).
Dnooman, I appreciate the effort, but I think Day One is far too early to reveal all of the precious little information we Vanilla Crewpeople have on our side. (Alas, if only I wasn't so jumpy, I would have been able to get my point across more clearly.)
Besides, I mentioned this before, but I think NAF and Kat genericized the role PMs enough that we can't play games like this (because I tried to do it in Psycopaths, but none of the other townies picked up on it).
halp
i iz innocent
do not want lynch
I went back and searched every page, I was right about one thing and wrong about another. This got me to thinking that if we leave this identifier unspoken, scum could figure it out, and mimic it, which would be far worse than us burning the reference. Plus, if the town can figure it out so can the scum, presumably. I think that by burning this small thing, we would still be ahead if we have another person who is pseudo-confirmed.
I think that now is the right time for me to reveal what the guay I'm talking about. If you strongly disagree, I'll keep my mouth shut.
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Re: Day 1 « Reply #1049 on Sept 18, 2007, 11:54am »
Well, I would prefer not to be lynched, so I eagerly await the contents of your magic bag.
(And yes, Vanilla Crewpeople, I left some breadcrumbs in my claim - I obviously couldn't quote my PM word for word, but I think I used enough synonyms that you can pick up on something.)
But in the meantime, again, please continue the general discussion. In Psycopaths, when my demise was all but a foregone conclusion, story posted a very eye-opening analysis of Blaster Master that helped Town win the game.