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Re: Day 1 « Reply #300 on Sept 13, 2007, 2:48am »
Hmm... Multi-quote stopped working for me, and I don't have much time right now.
I think someone(CatInASuit?) already mentioned it, but FCoD's statement of "nobody votes the hammer without the town's approval" just doesn't make sense.
FOS FCoD for suggesting an unworkable voting plan.
But the hammer vote is critical. It is inevitable that some people will be unhappy with whoever brings it. My suggestion on including vote counts for your candidate was some attempt to make people acknowledge that they know they are in that position, rather than claim they made a mistake, which looks a lot more scummy.
(Now in a perfect world, we'd have Condorcet voting after the initial run-off period ...)
I'm close to voting for Roosh, just to see what he role-claims as, but I think I'm giving it the one or two days of waiting, as long as you really do stop talking about your name theory.
I think someone(CatInASuit?) already mentioned it, but FCoD's statement of "nobody votes the hammer without the town's approval" just doesn't make sense.
FOS FCoD for suggesting an unworkable voting plan.
"This place gives me an uncomfortableness." -- A quote from someone on Firefly that I found amusing even having not seen the show. Mafia Record: 3-0 M2 - Mafia Henchman (Win) The Good Ship "Hispaniola" - Doctor Livesey (Win) The Cult of Sekham - Citizen (Win) Firefly - Bovine Chia Supreme Mugwamp President (TBD){=}http://s2.images.proboards.com/cool.gif{/=}
Joined: May 2007 Gender: Female Posts: 101 Location: The Black Karma: 4 [ Exalt | Smite ]
Re: Day 1 « Reply #302 on Sept 13, 2007, 2:54am »
"No votes" have the potential to be extremely wacky in this game. I almost hesitate to try and ponder them, but having that reaction often means I'll be forced to confront it eventually.
M1 - vanilla townie - win M3 - vanilla townie - win M4 - subbed-out scum - loss (but I don't count this one, because I only played for 2 days. ) M5 - monk townie - win (by the skin of my teeth){=}http://s2.images.proboards.com/wink.gif{/=}
Short of NAFKat telling you (and they'd have to tell everyone, and they haven't), you cannot know for sure. That means you are assuming. The fact that you've accepted this assumpion as fact terrifies me.
We do not know that all of the assigned names come from the ones mentioned in the wikipedia articles. Just because your name is listed doesn't mean everyone else's is listed. Your plan requires that everyone's name be listed, and since we can't rely on that, your plan is unreliable (and IMO dangerous).
--FCOD
Here, in fact, is what we know, from the first post (by NAF) of the "A Bit About Firefly" thread, in case anyone missed this:
Quote:
I think almost all the characters we used in the creation of the game are listed in here (though a couple on the lists are not in the game, and there is at least one character that is in the game and not on the lists) but this should give all of you not familiar with the series a good starting point.
NOTE: "In here" means in the Wikipedia list to which Roosh has been alluding.
"No votes" have the potential to be extremely wacky in this game. I almost hesitate to try and ponder them, but having that reaction often means I'll be forced to confront it eventually.
At this point I think it's inevitable that you will eventually have to choose 'twixt two players with the game on the line. Just relax and enjoy!
Joined: May 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 138 Location: Pacific Time Karma: 4 [ Exalt | Smite ]
Re: Day 1 « Reply #305 on Sept 13, 2007, 2:58am »
ok, I am just going to sneek this in here once. IF you guys want the mods to answer ANYTHING please post it in green or PM us. Otherwise we are going to assume that it is a game play post on your part and ignore it.
We might post a bit of fluff here and there, but will not be proactivly answering questions or clarifying concepts.
Also, don't look too closesly at any of the flavor text from here on out, but toDay's dawn post does give a bit of info about the game setup. Kat and I have posted other small "clues" (intentionally or not) about the game setup as well in other pregame posts.
(this last bit was posted because someone asked, if you ask, you just might get useful information.)
I should have been more specific. You are thinking that all of the assigned names are taken from the lists in the wikipedia articles, correct? I want to know what is your basis for this theory.
Short of NAFKat telling you (and they'd have to tell everyone, and they haven't), you cannot know for sure. That means you are assuming. The fact that you've accepted this assumpion as fact terrifies me.
We do not know that all of the assigned names come from the ones mentioned in the wikipedia articles. Just because your name is listed doesn't mean everyone else's is listed. Your plan requires that everyone's name be listed, and since we can't rely on that, your plan is unreliable (and IMO dangerous).
--FCOD
The names in the game are NOT all listed in the Wikipedia articles. From the "A bit about Firefly" thread:
To get a feel for the characters and vibe of the show.
I think almost all the characters we used in the creation of the game are listed in here (though a couple on the lists are not in the game, and there is at least one character that is in the game and not on the lists) but this should give all of you not familiar with the series a good starting point.
Any fans of the series who want to post additional helpful info for the neophites, please post it here.
M1 - vanilla townie - win M3 - vanilla townie - win M4 - subbed-out scum - loss (but I don't count this one, because I only played for 2 days. ) M5 - monk townie - win (by the skin of my teeth){=}http://s2.images.proboards.com/wink.gif{/=}
M1 - vanilla townie - win M3 - vanilla townie - win M4 - subbed-out scum - loss (but I don't count this one, because I only played for 2 days. ) M5 - monk townie - win (by the skin of my teeth){=}http://s2.images.proboards.com/wink.gif{/=}
FOS FCoD for suggesting an unworkable voting plan.
Umm...what? When did I say that?
--FCOD[/quote]
I was referring to this (not a voting plan per se but 'town's approval' seems to imply it) :
Quote:
If someone casts the 15th vote without the town's approval, I, for one, will be voting for him or her first thing in the morning. Nobody will be afraid of casting votes 14 and 15 if the town agrees.
I apologize for not having a direct quote. Multi-quote had a cookie problem and I didn't have time to find it again. Got a quick break to catch this, though.
Joined: Aug 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 54 Karma: 5 [ Exalt | Smite ]
Re: Day 1 « Reply #311 on Sept 13, 2007, 3:18am »
I...buh...urk. I have no idea where to start with all this. Well, okay, I guess we start in the obvious place.
Roosh...
I'm not going to quote your entire idea because people have pretty much already said what I think, and put it more eloquently at that. Your idea needs a lot of work, there are very many things wrong with it. I just get nervous at the idea of putting two or three people in a firing line at the end of the Day and going "GIVE US YOUR NAMES, OR ELSE!" If different people are forced to the line each Day, by the end of Day 4 at least 1/3 of the people playing will have given up their names, and scum will probably have been given a banquet of information on who to nightkill.
:nod: I can see this, but I don't want to believe it.
I think this is where your ideas have their biggest flaw. You have a gut feeling on how this game's been designed, and so you've kind of got blinders on. You WANT to believe your idea is shiny and pro-town and will help the town blow this game wide open, but what if what you want to believe isn't true? I personally think that you should have waited, and perhaps proposed this idea on like Day 3 or so, once we've seen a few deaths and what people look like upon their death. And of course, you shouldn't have dangled the "I have a great idea" post so early in this Day, either.
I think your idea is okay, wavering towards the bad side, but not necessarily scummy. You've also been acting off-the-wall, so your actions could be interpreted as scummy, but the idea itself isn't..which brings me to my next point.
Spaceman Blam...
I...wow, okay, let's see here. Your post against Roosh's idea sent up a guay of a lot of warning bells in my head, and I was trying to figure out why, so I went back and read and re-read it a few times, and I think it's the little interjections. There's only a couple, but:
What if I'm a very important power-role, wouldn't you feel like a trained ape...without the training? What if I'm really a vanilla townie with a name made up by NAF or Kat, wouldn't you feel like a jerk?
Either way, this is DEFINITELY the scummiest post so far Today! Can I vote for Roosh twice?
Now a lot of people after your post put forth disagreements towards Roosh's idea, the same disagreements you had. However, while they just straightforwardly gave reasons why they thought it was a bad idea, you tinged your argument against Roosh with these small ad hominem quips. Maybe you're just frustrated with Roosh's idea. But I feel like you could have made the same argument you did without including the above phrases. The phrases themselves are like subtle, subconscious nudges to anybody reading the post, making them think Roosh is more scummy and that his idea is completely bunk.
It's not really enough for me to FOS you or even start to think you're scummy, just because I think it might be my personal preference not to throw in ad hominem arguments. But I still felt like this was enough for me to point it out.
I think the scariest thing I've seen so far is that Roosh's big theory amounts to basically re-phrasing the game setup with what he thinks is a major loophole.
On one hand, it makes at least some sense. On the other hand, it's not even close to as sure as he thinks it is. Given that my preference in early game is to punish people who seem to have too much knowledge, vote Roosh.
Let's see what HIS name is, maybe.
(color removed)
Maybe it's the fact that I just finished reading about a full page of RooshPosts(tm) but I was really alarmed by this vote just from the brevity of the actual reasoning.
First, I feel like you used the same ad hominem subtleties that Spaceman Blam did. NO need to put "Let's see what HIS name is." It's just a subtle dig that isn't required, and puts Roosh in a more negative light for other townies just skimming posts.
Second, you want to punish people who seem to have too much knowledge? Roosh was posting his idea, from what information he was given. Now I'll give you that the way he presented it (dangling it in front of us for a full day) was not the best way to go about it, but do you want people to just not give ideas? I'd like a little more clarification on that, if I'm misinterpreting what you meant.
Finally, I understand (from what you said in the post) that maybe you aren't a wordy fellow like some of our other posters here. But I truly feel like you're trying to sneak in a vote for Roosh in the midst of a greater argument, just from the brevity of your reasoning. It's like you're jumping on the anti-Roosh's idea train and using it as an excuse to cast an early vote for him. Maybe I'm just overanalyzing, but that's how it came across to me.
A lot to digest here, but I want to get a quick post in.
I'm not sure if I like dnooman's explanation of his "every man for himself" comment on Page 7. It seems too much like backtracking after the realization that he made a big mistake. That wording seems incongruous with the role of a vanilla townie, and the explanation didn't help me understand why he used those words in the first place. Given that we don't have much to go on yet, all we can really rely on is knowing that someone's win condition seems different than ours.
Joined: May 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 48 Location: New Jersey Karma: 0 [ Exalt | Smite ]
Re: Day 1 « Reply #313 on Sept 13, 2007, 3:53am »
To panamajack: I find your interpretation of my statement to be an egregious attempt to twist my words. I think it is fairly obvious that by "town's approval" I mean the general concensus. First of all, not once did I suggest a "voting plan," as you stated. Second of all, what I said makes perfect sense.
If the town is still involved in discussions about the lynch target (say, with 13 or 14 votes), and the no-lynch deadline is not imminent, it makes perfect sense to suspect a player that "drops the hammer," accidentally or not. Likewise, once the town decides to end the day and kill the target, why should anyone worry about casting the final vote(s)? Was the meaning of my post really that unclear? I find you suspicious for your backwards logic.
To Roosh: By reading NAF's post that states clearly, "I think almost all the characters we used in the creation of the game are listed in here (though a couple on the lists are not in the game, and there is at least one character that is in the game and not on the lists)," my point is made. We cannot rely on name-claims at all.
"This place gives me an uncomfortableness." -- A quote from someone on Firefly that I found amusing even having not seen the show. Mafia Record: 3-0 M2 - Mafia Henchman (Win) The Good Ship "Hispaniola" - Doctor Livesey (Win) The Cult of Sekham - Citizen (Win) Firefly - Bovine Chia Supreme Mugwamp President (TBD){=}http://s2.images.proboards.com/cool.gif{/=}
To Roosh: By reading NAF's post that states clearly, "I think almost all the characters we used in the creation of the game are listed in here (though a couple on the lists are not in the game, and there is at least one character that is in the game and not on the lists)," my point is made. We cannot rely on name-claims at all.
--FCOD
I agree with you. But I will say this. I tend to view the cup as half full. You're viewing it as half empty. I'm putting emphasis on the fact that he said "almost all" as being that it's a good place to get started.
And Also, I see that atarus has beaten me to the punch. I really disliked the Zerial voting of me. It did make me panic during the afternoon (I was thinking I was going to come home to like 6-10 votes on me, and was ready to role claim and all).
But that's not the case. So I'm shiny and calm now. But right now, Blam and Zeriel are the two people I'm most uneasy about.
Atarus, Yeah, I'm not advocating creating a fire squad or anything like that. Rather, I'm saying this would be a helpful way perhaps to see scum slip up or to see townie gain townie cred w/o mislynching them. Already we've got votes out and about on 2-3 people. So I'm saying at some point during the week (well before the lynch) we ask them what's going on with their roles and such.
And FCoD- I think you were the one who asked me what's my definition of scummiest? Right now, it's the people who are giving me an uneasy feeling in my stomach. Obviously anyone voting FOR me makes me alarmed especially, but then I have to examine people's reasoning for doing so. If it's logical and well thought out. Then fine. Maybe I looked "scummy" to them, and they've got valid issues I need to address. But if they're being inconsistent, and just seeming to throw the vote out there to see if it sticks. I dislike that. But I will be the first to admit I've got tunnel-vision currently. I've been focused on defending my ideas that I've only really looked at the people who've been attacking my ideas or Me directly. and I don't believe everyone who is against my ideas is scum. But I want to examine the arguments to understand where they are coming from.
But I tend to be a gut instincts based person. I like logic as well as the next guy, but I have a short patience fuse and I know I tend to get over Excited over my own thoughts. Which is why I'm trying to shiny off.
I'll explain my ideas if peep have questions, but I'm not gonna try to push anything to the town. Perhaps my ideas did come too early. But i'm just working with the information I've been given. That's all.
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....
"This place gives me an uncomfortableness." -- A quote from someone on Firefly that I found amusing even having not seen the show. Mafia Record: 3-0 M2 - Mafia Henchman (Win) The Good Ship "Hispaniola" - Doctor Livesey (Win) The Cult of Sekham - Citizen (Win) Firefly - Bovine Chia Supreme Mugwamp President (TBD){=}http://s2.images.proboards.com/cool.gif{/=}
Spaceman Spiff Jayne's Hat The player formerly know as BLAM! member is offline
BM's seems the scummiest to me simply because of the way he seemed to be going after me, yes. I assumed I would garner votes, and I did not mind that. But I felt that he was actually PUSHING for me to be lynched, which caught me off guard. The other votes on me, not so much. they're FoSed, and I'll get to looking at them when I have time. The thing that gets me though is his reply TO my posting.
What? I seem scummy because I voted for you, and provided my reasoning, and then you're surprised I'm "PUSHING for [you] to get lynched"? What am I supposed to do, vote and then convince everyone else NOT to vote for you?
Quote:
I put one vote of suspicion on the man, and he all but comes out with a long winding post that distorts my words, and attacks ME for my ideas without really trying to address my ideas. The subsequent posters have actually seemed to look at my ideas, and give it thought. BlaM Just out and says "NO! ITS BAD! IT"S VERY BAD!" And then claims I'm even more scummier FOR such a thing. This to me makes NO sense, and it just seems like he's reaching to try to attack me over nothing.
No, I was after you long before that post because of your bait/trap mentality toward playing this game. Then you come in which something that just SCREAMS bad idea to me, I point out flaws as I see them (perhaps a bit tersely), and your response is basically "I don't want to believe that". Not to mention, several of my points were either reflected or simply explained better by others and someone (I forget who) has since found a mod post which specifically states the crux of my counter-argument.
The bottom line is, you're witholding information, you're making MASSIVE assumptions, and NOW you're pulling the persecution card.
I can't remember who said something similar, but they suggested (or at least mentioned) having a preliminary phase of voting with the vote-leaders moving up to a 2nd round, when the actual majority consensus target would be selected.
This seems to fit in line with the stages that myself, story, sinjin (did I forget anyone?) seem to be talking about.
I don't know which arbitrary number is best (5 maybe?) for the first vote threshold. 5 strikes me as sufficiently below the (15-x-y) limit to avoid a hammer-wagon. <snip>
Alright, something had been bugging me from the get-go about the vote-leaders at point X in the Day are put into a run-off, and I couldn't figure out what. Then I read this post and it all became clear. (Note to Cookies: This isn't an attack on you or your idea, it's just your idea made me finally realize what I've been finding wrong with the whole situation.)
So here we go.
FIRST, correct me if I'm wrong here, but we have no idea if the scum can Daytalk, right? I went back and re-read the rules and there's been no indication if the scum are restricted to nighttalking, or if they can discuss strategy during the Day. So until proven otherwise, I personally believe we should treat it as if the scum CAN coordinate during the Day. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.
That being said, IF the scum can talk during the Day, obviously they're already discussing how best to use whatever run-off plan we decide on to their advantage. And if the scum can only Nighttalk, we should assume that by Day Two, they're probably going to have a plan to use our plan against us.
And here's what's been bugging me this entire time. People have been worried about an "accidental hammer" (including me, and I'm realizing now that I shouldn't be as worried about it as I have been) when they should have been worried about something else. (NOTE: Definition of hammer, I believe, is the vote that ends up lynching someone permanently, i.e. the 15th vote today = hammer) However, the scum don't HAVE to even think about being the 15th vote! All they have to do is, in the early stages, nudge a townie or two into the run-off range, and then let the town do the rest of the work!
Let's use Cookies' plan as an example. We as a group set a limit that if a person reaches 5 votes, they're eligible for a run-off. So now scum don't have to worry about getting somebody lynched, all they have to do is get somebody to 5 votes. If they're successful in getting at least two townies into the run-off portion, their workload is SO much easier at that point. By creating the run-off plan, we've actually made it easier for the scum to get townies lynched.
The problem is, we need to find a way to ensure that we get the vote majority, and the run-off plan is the best idea we've had so far. I, personally, have no idea how to scum-proof it, but maybe somebody else does?
Also, if people don't get what I'm saying, I can try to explain it better. Sometimes I have a hard time explaining what I'm thinking.
The scum can claim with their own role names and it will not make any difference.
Why: because being a particular person in this game is no guarantee of being town or scum.
Some roles will be obviously town but I bet you that the scum role names are indistinct enough that we will not be able to tell just from their name if they are scum or not. WIFOM it is not.
See. I want to believe that they're not. That scum are given names like "Reaver 1-3 or Alliance memeber" and just that. If they're given real names, and if those names are obscure little names from the game, then fine. But shouldn't we be suspicious after a while if we have like 5 people who are just these borderline obscure as heck people, while everyone else is a major actual person from the list of the 33 Wiki people?
This is a much more concise way of putting my main point (with thanks to CatInASuit). I don't know anything about the 'verse. In fact, I have deliberately NOT looked up information because I don't want to be unduly swayed by a gut feeling that such and such a character is or is not a bad guy.
The example that someone mentioned of a character called "The Operative" was exactly the type of role I had in mind, but of which I could not provide an example because of my ignorance of Firefly.
My fear is that all of the power roles will have distinct main character names (a la Captain Picard, Captain Kirk, etc.), and most of the rest of the roles will either be extremely minor, ambiguous, made up, or not from the list and so obscure not even a fan would recognize it. What that means is, a "name-only" claim could very well provide no information about the role, provide no opportunity for a counter-claim since it very well could be ambiguous and no need to pick one from the list, and potentially out a power role just as much as if they'd say "Hey I'm the Doctor" if they claim someone like that Doctor Simon guy that was mentioned.
See. I want to believe that they're not. That scum are given names like "Reaver 1-3 or Alliance memeber" and just that. If they're given real names, and if those names are obscure little names from the game, then fine. But shouldn't we be suspicious after a while if we have like 5 people who are just these borderline obscure as heck people, while everyone else is a major actual person from the list of the 33 Wiki people?
This is a much more concise way of putting my main point (with thanks to CatInASuit). I don't know anything about the 'verse. In fact, I have deliberately NOT looked up information because I don't want to be unduly swayed by a gut feeling that such and such a character is or is not a bad guy.
The example that someone mentioned of a character called "The Operative" was exactly the type of role I had in mind, but of which I could not provide an example because of my ignorance of Firefly.
My fear is that all of the power roles will have distinct main character names (a la Captain Picard, Captain Kirk, etc.), and most of the rest of the roles will either be extremely minor, ambiguous, made up, or not from the list and so obscure not even a fan would recognize it. What that means is, a "name-only" claim could very well provide no information about the role, provide no opportunity for a counter-claim since it very well could be ambiguous and no need to pick one from the list, and potentially out a power role just as much as if they'd say "Hey I'm the Doctor" if they claim someone like that Doctor Simon guy that was mentioned.
Well, and there's the fact that in the Firefly-verse, it's sort of hard to pin black and white "Good Guy" / "Bad Guy" tabs on most of the characters. Mal is almost certain to be Crew, and a Reaver is almost certain to be NOT, but if, say, Saffron is in the game, who knows what she might be (apart from rutting awesome, that is)? So trying to identify the alignments of even the prominent characters is bound to be a crapshoot.
Incidentally - I read NAF's comments about toDay's opening color and then went back and re-read that color. I'm suddenly a bit nervous that at least one scum group may not actually kill at all. I have no idea how to deal with a scum group that recruits as it goes along and doesn't kill, but the opening color would seem to be pointing in that direction.
I...wow, okay, let's see here. Your post against Roosh's idea sent up a guay of a lot of warning bells in my head, and I was trying to figure out why, so I went back and read and re-read it a few times, and I think it's the little interjections. There's only a couple, but:
Now a lot of people after your post put forth disagreements towards Roosh's idea, the same disagreements you had. However, while they just straightforwardly gave reasons why they thought it was a bad idea, you tinged your argument against Roosh with these small ad hominem quips. Maybe you're just frustrated with Roosh's idea. But I feel like you could have made the same argument you did without including the above phrases. The phrases themselves are like subtle, subconscious nudges to anybody reading the post, making them think Roosh is more scummy and that his idea is completely bunk.
It's not really enough for me to FOS you or even start to think you're scummy, just because I think it might be my personal preference not to throw in ad hominem arguments. But I still felt like this was enough for me to point it out.
I'm not sure it's fair to classify the second quote (which doesn't seem to be showing up in my quote) as an ad hominem attack. That was part of a list of possibilities that could happen if I were to claim my name so early. And, FTR, the "trained ape" comment was another word that was caught by the filter, but I don't remember what. Basically, in that case, I was trying to emphasis how bad some of those situations could be.
As for the rest, yes, I do post rather curtly sometimes. My style is generally, "brain dump and post" with little to no previewing and sometimes without sufficient explanation for my emotional remarks. For example, the first remark was a sarcastic reference to Day One in MV, with all of the plans about how to get the apprentice investigated and such and such. There very well may be a loophole (like what ALMOST got zuma off in M4), but every other time, they've been either from an over active imagination, from massively incorrect (or at least unprovable) assumptions, or worst of all, hugely damaging to the town.
As for the third, it was a statement of my opinion (that it was a super scummy post) emphasized with a silly comment.
Now, I've come to the realization (after M2, and how much emotion I incited) that my emotional comments seldom come across as I think they will, and I've tried to include (much to my distaste) emoticons to help express that. IOW, to remark afterward, the first comment you quoted should have a , and the last should have a and/or .
Regardless, it IS an emotional game, and you'll probably see plenty more comments like that from me and others.
4. We take our 2-3 people, and we FORCE them to claim. Not their roles or anything like that. Instead, we want only 1 thing from them: Their Names.
5.With that information, we can analyze it. Does that name make sense within the FireFly universe? Ie: Is that guy a good guy or a bad guy in the series? Does that guy even exist? Someone claims he's just a doctor. That's bullshit. Our doctor will have a NAME. Our townies, NAMES. Maybe that crazy Bounty hunter SK dude will have a name too (i wouldn't recognize it. But that's why I need you fanatics alive) cuz you could see if its good or bad.
...
And with that BlasterMaster, I'd like a RoleClaim out of you. Because you seem the most suspicious to me all day about wanting my info.
So I'll vote for you. But I'll change it once if i hear a reasonable claim. Vote BlasterMaster
*feel free to ask me any Q's.
Heavily snipped.
Are you crazy? How can you think this is a good idea? You say it's great and all but it all hinged on one thing. Your alignment. For all anyone knows, you could be scum wanting to know who is who so you know who can be killed or not.
I don't see how this benifits town at all. Forcing people to tell us their names? Yeah, let's do that so scum will know who everyone is. Then if there's a fanatic on that side, they'd have a good idea what the power would be.
I do agree that the first step in forcing a claim is to make them give their character name before revealing their role, to see if there is a character name counter-claim, but at this point I'm certainly not going to vote to lynch based on their character name being "good" or "bad" or non-existant until we have a handle on how the game has been set up.
I dunno. Maybe this is because I'm not a Firefly fanatic and never seen the show and thus wouldn't know what the names mean, but I personally, think it'd be better to just role claim general roles (IF need be and IF it comes to it) instead of names. Then, if there are other claims, the two can name names then, the more INEXPERIENCED (of FF genre) one going first (so there's no "Oh, yeah, that's me" from them when they hear the more experienced person's role).
Still lots to catch up on. I'm only on page eight.
:nod: The introduction of a Cult. I told you guys I had a Bad feeling. This is why I go with my Guts, man. Cults are rutting hard to deal with. I have yet to see a mafia game where the Cult has been stopped besides from just blind luck (usually it starts off with one guy who can recruit, and then every night just adds another person to his posse, until he tries to get a majority). The only nice thing is usually when one of them dies, we see that they're revealed as a cult.
However, stopping said guy? I have no clue how to do it. All i know is Cult is usually Anti-Town, AND anti-Scum usually in games. It's its own team that keeps breeding at night (one way to handicap the cult is to have only 1 person be the head recruiter, and so if he dies, at least we know the cult stops breeding), but again, that leaves his minions behind to deal with, AND even if he's dead, we'd have no way of knowing if he's the only one who can recruit. That's why... I dunno, I try not to even think about the scariness that is cult and hope luck handles that one. It seems like its so unpredictably messy.
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....
Spaceman Spiff Jayne's Hat The player formerly know as BLAM! member is offline
Incidentally - I read NAF's comments about toDay's opening color and then went back and re-read that color. I'm suddenly a bit nervous that at least one scum group may not actually kill at all. I have no idea how to deal with a scum group that recruits as it goes along and doesn't kill, but the opening color would seem to be pointing in that direction.
Excellent point about the openning color. Based on the descriptions early about reavers, they very well could be like the vampire role. For instance, maybe there's no one who is a "reaver", or perhaps only one, and everyone else could have generic or not so generic names and be converted. That is, if this sort of role exists, even someone who is "obviously crew", like Mal (he's the captain, right?) could very well be a bad guy. Hell, he could even be the original one, having been converted on some recenty away mission.
Either way, I suppose that makes reasonable evidence for at least some kind of conversion role, and all the better reason why scum might want us to lend undue trust to a clearly pro-town name.
Okay. I'm bored at work and it's time to start breaking down what's going on here. This is going to be a bit unorganized, as I'm probably going to get interrupted a few times while I'm working on it, but...here goes.
First off, we have the lurkers. I'm going through the player list and putting an X next to every player's name when I see a post in the thread. Right now I'm not even reading the thread, just seeing how much noise people are making. And my results are...
I'm hoping my counting errors were at a minimum, but here we go. The results tell me two things. First, I'm relatively suspicious of anyone with fewer than five posts, and I want the mods to prod tragic, who has yet to post.. Remember, the town benefits when we all speak up and share our ideas. The scum has information but not numbers, we have numbers but not information. By talking, we get more info out there.
But then there's the flip side of that coin, and that's when someone totally dominates the conversation, like Roosh has been doing. I know a lot of it has been defending his ideas, but he's coming across as very scummy to me. First the "I have a secret" type of attitude, which I loathe, and then the huge amounts of noise and thread clutter. Hell, there were times when Roosh made four or five posts IN A ROW. It makes me think of Blaster Master and his strategy from last game, which was to make a lot of general posts about game theory and not much about the players at first, just to get people started talking, and in the hopes that if he made a lot of noise, he'd seem very townie. What Roosh is doing seems like a somewhat more unsophisticated version of that. I know that Roosh tends to do a lot of stream-of-consciousness posting from the last game, so a lot of this may be his posting style, but it seems different somehow this time around, and I can't quite put my finger on why. I guess this leads me to point a big fat FOS Roosh. I'm not willing to change my vote just yet, seeing as what I'm going on currently is based on more than just "he talks a whole lot and doesn't say much of anything useful," but if we get toward the end of the Day and need a majority and Roosh is ahead, I would certainly consider a vote change.
...to be continued after I read what's been posted since I started this thing 45 minutes ago...
The example that someone mentioned of a character called "The Operative" was exactly the type of role I had in mind, but of which I could not provide an example because of my ignorance of Firefly.
My fear is that all of the power roles will have distinct main character names (a la Captain Picard, Captain Kirk, etc.), and most of the rest of the roles will either be extremely minor, ambiguous, made up, or not from the list and so obscure not even a fan would recognize it. What that means is, a "name-only" claim could very well provide no information about the role, provide no opportunity for a counter-claim since it very well could be ambiguous and no need to pick one from the list, and potentially out a power role just as much as if they'd say "Hey I'm the Doctor" if they claim someone like that Doctor Simon guy that was mentioned.
Well, I was just for using the roles as an indicator to see if scum would trip up (If they Didn't use their real names obviously). But yes, some roles aren't included in the set up. But I guess I'm just reading more into the Mod's note that "Almost ALL" are from wikipedia. To me, that means greater than 50%-66%. Why? Just because that's what i think of when I hear "Almost ALL", so thats why I feel its useful.
I'm not so much concerned about WHAT the role is, as much as I am "Does Anyone else have the same role?" Because I believe we're all individuals. That's what I'm trying to get across.
And I felt you were the most reactionary to my ideas, the way you just were so anti-them, but to me it just seemed like you weren't even thinking about trying to improve the idea, or to make it work for the town. You just did not want to use it PERIOD.
At that point in the day nothing else was being said, so I felt like everything else is just a wash. At least with dialogs we can have a sharing of information, and not just this "fishing" (which i felt was there because you seem QUITE preoccupied with the finding/guessing of ROLES based on name alone. I just want this to verify town. Not to try to guess what Powers go along with the roles.
I admit later on my plan does have its flaws, and it does have its fair share of assumptions. But I still think it's a GOOD idea at heart. Maybe it needs tweaking, but that's why I shared it with you guys. I got some better feedback, and I can see some of the errors, But i think it's something that we should try using later in the game with more information.
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....
Excellent point about the openning color. Based on the descriptions early about reavers, they very well could be like the vampire role. For instance, maybe there's no one who is a "reaver", or perhaps only one, and everyone else could have generic or not so generic names and be converted. That is, if this sort of role exists, even someone who is "obviously crew", like Mal (he's the captain, right?) could very well be a bad guy. Hell, he could even be the original one, having been converted on some recenty away mission.
Either way, I suppose that makes reasonable evidence for at least some kind of conversion role, and all the better reason why scum might want us to lend undue trust to a clearly pro-town name.
Crap, this is going to be a stressful game. Your last paragraph here makes a very good point. If: (1) recruitment is a possibility; and (2) anyone can be recruited, then it becomes fundamentally important that the pro-town power roles stay as unknown as possible. In such a scenario, Roosh's "force name claims" strategy would be very problematic, as it would expose pro-town power roles to potential recruitment. But I haven't the slightest idea how to deal with something like that.
Now, I've come to the realization (after M2, and how much emotion I incited) that my emotional comments seldom come across as I think they will, and I've tried to include (much to my distaste) emoticons to help express that. IOW, to remark afterward, the first comment you quoted should have a , and the last should have a and/or .
Regardless, it IS an emotional game, and you'll probably see plenty more comments like that from me and others.Regardless, it IS an emotional game, and you'll probably see plenty more comments like that from me and others.
(snipped, obviously)
That's fine. It's why I didn't FOS you or anything like that. I just wanted to point it out so I could get this type of explanatory response. It's all cool, I understand it's your posting style, now. No further questions.
So by the possible addition of the Cult, should we just never RoleClaim or try to defend ourselves, but accept the inevitability of going to the gallows doomed men, giving our last spiel, and just hoping the rest of the town can figure out something? (that was semi-serious, response to you ST, because yeah with a Cult we don't want to reveal just who exactly is pro-town, buuut, I don't see a better idea at the moment other than the doomed man scenario).
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....