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Re: Day 1 « Reply #870 on Sept 17, 2007, 3:44am »
For the fourth (fifth?) time, this is why I'm against the Vanilla Crewpeople claiming unless they're in danger of being lynched:
The scum do not know who the powerroles are. Until anybody said anything, they had a pool of 28 - N (where N is the number of that particular scum group) people to guess at.
With the vanillas claiming, they can now reduce the pool to 28 - N - Vanillas, unless they, too, want to play the game of "should we keep them in contention for a powerrole anyway, in case they're not being truthful"?
(On the other hand, I guess this also makes things easier for any pro-Crew protective/roleblocking roles, so things are not as grim as I thought.)
That's why I stuck to using the term "town". I wanted to keep strategy discussion to generic terms. (And that's why I only have a FoS on Mad...if he is a true Mason, then he would have the same reservations as I do. And I'm guessing that he claimed because he figured he would soon become the #1 lynch candidate since Roosh and dnooman both claimed.)
I don't know how much more clearly I can make myself. I was trying to protect the pro-Crew power roles.
Joined: May 2007 Gender: Female Posts: 101 Location: The Black Karma: 4 [ Exalt | Smite ]
Re: Day 1 « Reply #872 on Sept 17, 2007, 4:27am »
In M5, there were multiple "town" factions. The "Believers" and the "Non-Believers". They had one mutual win condition, and the "Non-Believers" had a second win condition all of their own (which gave me a fair bit of acid reflux during the closing hours of the game).
Before we go lynching each other because people are using the "wrong" term to describe "town", consider the possibility that the "town" in this game may be split up in a similar fashion. The canon I cited earlier with the bar-brawl on Unification Day would support the possibility of two "town-like" factions going up against the Alliance.
Quoting myself in case some of you may have missed it:
Ok then. I also think that the Mods' clarification was necessary, and it confirms some musings I've had. Having not read everything yet, I have been hesitant to voice musings over the past few days. I do still need to read through pretty much everything Roosh has posted and the related responses, but I have been following as best I can.
For those familiar with the show, think about the scenes surrounding the bar fight on Unification Day. After the brawl, back on Serenity, Simon warily asks Mal if any "Alliance interest" was paid to the brawl, and Mal assures him that it was just "among folk". I propose this scene as a possible microcosm of at least part of the composition of this game.
Mal=captain, browncoat, cranky about all things Alliance, particularly Unification. Drunk Bald guy=Alliance Citizen, celebratory of Unification and all things Alliance. "Alliance interest" that didn't show an intrest in the brawl = the occupying force trying to control everything, aka The Authorities.
It seems to help me to think about it that way, so I figure maybe it might help others.
In M5, despite Hockey Monkey's Non-Believer tampering, I think it is safe to say that most of us played the game with the "town" being made up of both the Believers and the Non Believers. I'm not necessarily advocating that now, since we don't have enough information to even know if that is the case, but it is something to keep in mind.
And please, for the love of God, please don't respond to this post with any "hand-tipping" verification if what is written on your PM proves or disproves this hunch.
M1 - vanilla townie - win M3 - vanilla townie - win M4 - subbed-out scum - loss (but I don't count this one, because I only played for 2 days. ) M5 - monk townie - win (by the skin of my teeth){=}http://s2.images.proboards.com/wink.gif{/=}
Dotchan. Then it's okay if you die, because that is the most effective way to protect the town power roles.
I was going to do it w/ my Roosh plan 2.0, because I figured this town is going nowhere in a lynching scenario, and so my death wouldn't be as bad as say... a doctor or a cop or even a vig. That's why i was willing to try to die for the town, but then saw against it, as well, Nobody really likes a Marty, and I still want to PLAY this game. But it was a thought. I personally think we're going to end up with a no lynch. However, if we are forced to lynch and have NO idea who to lynch, rather than risk randomly hitting a protown role, it is better than to hit an uncertain Vanilla role, because if we cannot get scum, at least we do not get a power role in trouble either. (so if you're going to claim "You were doing it to PROTECT the ProTown Roles, just remember then what you said if you are lynched. Because in death you can still help the town that way. But most people don't like that idea, where you're basically putting all the weight onto your teammate's shoulders).
Also, since you've revealed your win condition, alignment and all that. Can I have a Name Claim please? For the sake of Data for my idea to see if its true names are correlated with roles? Thank you. ~R
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....
I saw three people who did that. Myself, Roosh and sinjin. If there were others, let me know.
Ha, nice try, Idle. I'm not doing your legwork for you.
There is no legwork to be involved, because that is the only ones that I saw that did that. I wasn't asking you literally to let me know. I was saying like "blah blah blah blah, yes?". The "yes" part being rethorical.
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As it is I think we've inadvertantly given the scum too much extra information.
And you have consistantly been unable to tell me HOW, exactly, that is the case. I ask again. How? I don't/can't see how it's possible.
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I'm just trying to keep my side, the Crew, safe from speculation.
But you cannot be Crew. Please read my post I made after I voted for you. You are assuming all Crew is vanilla town. You have said this. WHY you think this, I don't know. Me, I think that all Crew = ALL of town/all of the good side/ALL town power roles/ALL vanilla town.
So unless the scum are mind readers or magically gifted, I don't know or see how they'd be able to distingish "My win conditions are the same" or "my alignment is the same" from anything. It wouldn't make a different. We'd all be town to them and thus already all be targeted. It doesn't give anything away. Please tell me how it does., as you have been unable to yet.
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I explained myself...how many times, now?
I can't believe I'm being lynched on semantics again. Just because I'm using Vanilla Townie (the mafia term) instead of Vanilla Crewperson (the in game term), you think this is a scumtell?
So what you're saying is that CREW will be vanilla town only and not power roles?
I'm asking YOU, how would you know that and why would/do you assume that?
Here's what I think.
I think you're fishing. I think you're saying that and hoping someone will go "Nope, that's not the case" and then you'd know they had a power role of some sort. Therefore, I think you're scum.
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Female Posts: 140 Location: The Warner Water Tower Karma: 3 [ Exalt | Smite ]
Re: Day 1 « Reply #876 on Sept 17, 2007, 5:23am »
*sigh* I didn't think I'd have to claim, too, on Day One, but better me than a pro-crew power role, right?
I'm Ramiro, Vanilla Crewperson. I'm aligned with the Crew. I win when all Alliance (i.e. scum, not the normal citizens who are just trying to go about their business) are dead.
I haven't watched Serenity and I only know the vague basics of the show. (It's referred to somewhat sarcastically in the other message boards I frequent as either "Live Action Outlaw Star" or "Live Action Cowboy Bebop".)
And your lack of knowledge that there isn't a 'town' in this game is supremely scummy. Your post suggests that there is an allied "town" faction along with the "crew" faction. Except there isn't. The good guys, no matter the flavor in their (vanilla) roles, are all 'alignment: Crew'.
Exactly.
You are either lying, dotchan or you just don't know what I (and a few others apparently) do because you didn't get the same wording in your PM as I (and consquently dnooman and Roosh if they are to be believed) did.
Maybe I haven't been clear enough, and for that I apologize. I've been purposely using the term "Town" instead of "Crew" because I don't know what the scum terms and win conditions are, and I didn't want to accidentally give them extra information. (And in retrospect, I probably worried too much because NAF and Kat probably used "Crew" for "Town" in all of the role PMs - NAF said something to the effect of making all of the role PMs as generic as possible, so that people can't confirm themselves 100% if they try to quote chunks of it. I tried to do that in the Psycopaths game, but apparently very few people picked up on it.)
I am, FTR, a Vanilla Crewmember, and I am Crew-aligned.
You sound like you're backtracking here. Earlier you said that you ddin't want people saying what their alignment or win conditions were because you said it made it easier for scum to find the power roles. When I asked you how this is so, you said a lot have already stated their alignment (crew) and winning conditions.
THIS says to me that you assume or think that crew = vanilla town and that something else = power roles. Otherwise how would saying "I have a crew alignment" be making it any easier for scum? WHAT IF ALL the town (vanilla AND power roles) had an alignment of "crew"? HOW WOULD THAT MAKE IT ANY EASIER FOR THE SCUM? How would that be, in your own words, "narrowing it down for them"?
It wouldn't be.
So like I said above..I think either A. you're lying. B. you have a PM that reads different and therefore didn't know what crew/town's read. C. you're fishing to see if anyone corrects you on that and therefore would probably think they were power roles (because they'd know everything was one and the same) or D. all of the above
For the fourth (fifth?) time, this is why I'm against the Vanilla Crewpeople claiming unless they're in danger of being lynched:
That's not what you said earlier. You were saying to everyone to stop with it. When I asked "why, what does it hurt?" You said it's narrowing down the power roles. But how do YOU know who was/is crew: vanilla town and who was/is crew: power role?
That was your mistake. You assumed all the crew was vanilla and thought that each person saying "I'm crew aligned" was narrowing it down for the scum. But what if the power roles also are "crew aligned"?
It wouldn't make a difference!
So you're insisting on this has made me vote for you. I think you were fishing and still are.
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The scum do not know who the powerroles are. Until anybody said anything, they had a pool of 28 - N (where N is the number of that particular scum group) people to guess at.
With the vanillas claiming, they can now reduce the pool to 28 - N - Vanillas, unless they, too, want to play the game of "should we keep them in contention for a powerrole anyway, in case they're not being truthful"?
I ask again, who claimed vanilla town, OTHER THAN YOURSELF? I didn't see anyone do that.
Please QUOTE to me who did that, other than yourself. Please. I'm so curious to know who did that and thus helped narrow it down for the scum.
dnooman said he was Alliance Town and stated his win conditions. sinjin said she was on the same team as dnooman (thus Alliance Town and same win conditions) Roosh role claimed and said his win conditions. I said my win conditions were the same as dnooman's and Roosh's.
Huh. No "vanilla town" listed above. Where did you see this, dotchan? Why are you assuming it? How would the scum be able to tell the different? Not even I can.
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(On the other hand, I guess this also makes things easier for any pro-Crew protective/roleblocking roles, so things are not as grim as I thought.)
Oh, NOW you're addressing it. Only after I've been trying to SAY that all this time.
Well, sorry but I don't buy it now. Call it tunnel vision if you want but my vote stands.
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I don't know how much more clearly I can make myself. I was trying to protect the pro-Crew power roles.
I don't buy it. Because earlier you said that it was being narrowed down by everyone claiming they were vanilla town. As you see from the list I posted above, the only person I've seen actually do that is YOU. That's why I kept asking you "how are the scum having it narrowed down for them?"
No, I do not think Crew = Vanilla Town. I think Vanilla Crewperson = Vanilla Town.
I concede that I may have misread some of the people's claims here, but that doesn't make me scummy.
Then why did you think it made a difference if people were saying what their alignment and win conditions were? Why did you insist that it "painted a target" on their backs? ALL town has targets already. Stating a win condition or alignment does nothing to help them as far as I can see.
*sigh* I didn't think I'd have to claim, too, on Day One, but better me than a pro-crew power role, right?
I'm Ramiro, Vanilla Crewperson. I'm aligned with the Crew. I win when all Alliance (i.e. scum, not the normal citizens who are just trying to go about their business) are dead.
And now here comes the fun part as Ramiro as a character is not on Wikipedia or mentioned in any of the episodes.
dotchan, you know the FF world, right? Aren't you one of the fans? You'd think she'd claim a character in the game, at least, if she really was scum, albeit a vague, small one.
Or maybe she'd think everyone would think that and thus be unsure and not want to lynch.
Gah, this is so confusing. Closed set-ups suck*
*well, not really, but it doesn't make it any easier.
Joined: Aug 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 124 Location: Hidden and Smiling Karma: 0 [ Exalt | Smite ]
Re: Day 1 « Reply #881 on Sept 17, 2007, 6:07am »
Idle Thoughts,
If you want something more confusing, I have been reading through the Firefly stuff and there are only a few options for scum or monks.
For Scum: We either have a group of random alliance officers from the game or "2 by 2, the hands of blue" and their allies.
For Monks: We have either "The hands of blue", or Adelei Niska's outfit.
None of which is actually pleasant at all. Given this universe, I am more inclined to see the masons, IF they exist as not pleasant at all and quite frankly non-town aligned.
MadTheSwine: I would definitely like to know what your name is, because from your cryptic comments, you sound like you are one of the "Hands of Blue" and they deserve lynching.
*sigh* I didn't think I'd have to claim, too, on Day One, but better me than a pro-crew power role, right?
I'm Ramiro, Vanilla Crewperson. I'm aligned with the Crew. I win when all Alliance (i.e. scum, not the normal citizens who are just trying to go about their business) are dead.
And now here comes the fun part as Ramiro as a character is not on Wikipedia or mentioned in any of the episodes.
Woo-Hoo!.
Who wants to explain this one.
I just googled Ramiro along with Serenity and Firefly (and then again with each individual one) and got a bunch of webpages in Spanish.
I'm getting really WIFOM with this one. If scum made a fake role claim, don't you think they'd check the Wiki first and make sure it was a character that...existed? But then, scum might be afraid of picking a role that was in the game, so instead would just claim someone that didn't exist, hoping we'd all think that scum wouldn't be that dumb. And then my head explodes.
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 82 Location: Santa Fe, NM Karma: 2 [ Exalt | Smite ]
Re: Day 1 « Reply #883 on Sept 17, 2007, 6:25am »
The mods did say that there was at least one character that wasn't on the wiki, but I can't imagine them using a character that wasn't in the show or movie. Any fanatics care to chime in?
If you want something more confusing, I have been reading through the Firefly stuff and there are only a few options for scum or monks.
For Scum: We either have a group of random alliance officers from the game or "2 by 2, the hands of blue" and their allies.
For Monks: We have either "The hands of blue", or Adelei Niska's outfit.
None of which is actually pleasant at all. Given this universe, I am more inclined to see the masons, IF they exist as not pleasant at all and quite frankly non-town aligned.
MadTheSwine: I would definitely like to know what your name is, because from your cryptic comments, you sound like you are one of the "Hands of Blue" and they deserve lynching.
Over to you.
Huh. I don't want to bother estimating or talking about it at all unless needed. Why help out scum more than needed?
Funny, I don't agree with dotchan in saying win conditions or alignment if it helps figure things out or in the case of a head being on a chopping block but I don't see how talking about possible power roles or factions as being helpful myself.
Naw, but seriously...I've seen the post where NAF says there's at least one name that's not on the list? But a possible three, four? Color me very, very, very confused now.
Naw, but seriously...I've seen the post where NAF says there's at least one name that's not on the list? But a possible three, four? Color me very, very, very confused now.
That denotes I was making a joke. At least I thought that the quote above would have shown it and that it was apparent.
The joke I was making is namely that there is no way to confirm if you are telling the truth or not or if your characters are ultimately good or bad. We have just your word on it. So in a way, that does suck because I don't see how anyone could fully trust you lest your death or someone else's happens that is found to be a mason.
Putting it the way I did, and with the sentence after it, it was obvious to me it was being lighthearted. Just because you didn't take it with the jokey tone that it was intended to portray doesn't make it scummy.
The mods did say that there was at least one character that wasn't on the wiki, but I can't imagine them using a character that wasn't in the show or movie. Any fanatics care to chime in?
I'm not really a browncoat (FF equivilant of a trekkie) but I don't remember any Ramiro's. Not every named character in every episode is on the wiki list, either. Mad's role might still be from the show.
I'd vote dotchan.... but I already did. I think I'm set for this Day. If I lurk until Nighttime, it's because I need to get my brain back in order after all this.
I can't imagine why the character not taken from the wiki-list would be a vanilla townie role. You'd think a one-off character would be a Chia Bingo Master, Murdering Jesus, or Laser-shooting Pumpkin, you know?
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 38 Location: Brisvegas, Australia Karma: 1 [ Exalt | Smite ]
Re: Day 1 « Reply #896 on Sept 17, 2007, 9:30am »
I do believe I've officially lost the plot.
I'm finding I'm simply skimming a lot of posts just to try and keep some semblance of keeping up, but that doesn't help with trying to figure out who the scum are.
So that being said, I'm not sure I completely believe Mad's roleclaim, but in the absence of any counterclaim I will Unvote Mad the Swine for the moment.
Which leaves me in a quandary, because now I don't have a strong enough scum read on anyone else to really justify a vote right now.
This majority lynch bizo is a noodle twister, Maybe once we have at least some info on Day 2 it might get a bit easier, but at the moment it justs seems we're all running around in circles chasing our tails. I'm getting a bad vibe at the moment that we're going to wind up either no-lynching on Day 1, or there will be a mad last second scramble to form a majority vote on someone, anyone, which could easily be scum manipulated.
Joined: May 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 40 Location: where I can't stand Karma: 1 [ Exalt | Smite ]
Re: Day 1 « Reply #897 on Sept 17, 2007, 10:29am »
The majority vote rule is making things tough, but I'm a bit more sanguine about it now. As the Days go on, we should at some point be voting for scum, and I have a feeling that this will work well for us. Scum will have a harder time defending other scum without it being obvious, and probably have to vote their fellow Alliance members off. On the other hand, this means they may be able to hide easier. Maybe it still sucks.
Either way, it definitely sucks Today. We're either going to fail to lynch anyone at all or most likely lynch crew after a long argument and multiple role claims which won't reveal much information after the lynch at all.
The Name Claims are a really bad idea if the scum actually have normal names. Assuming that the Serenity Crew (a.k.a. Main Characters a.k.a. Big gorram Heroes) are all likely power roles, this means we'll reveal stumble on power roles before anything else. There is a possibility (even a good one) that the BDHs are actually minor power roles and the truly powerful cops, etc. are hidden among minor characters, so I'm not saying this will necessarily happen if we continue this way.
I also don't like early role claims - Mad only had about 8 votes on him before his odd claim. That's a level to get worried at, but if everyone did that, the scum could almost start driving votes into role claims.
I can't imagine why the character not taken from the wiki-list would be a vanilla townie role. You'd think a one-off character would be a Chia Bingo Master, Murdering Jesus, or Laser-shooting Pumpkin, you know?
Actually, I think a vanilla townie is a perfect option for a generic name. It's the most generic role.
Joined: May 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 40 Location: where I can't stand Karma: 1 [ Exalt | Smite ]
Re: Day 1 « Reply #899 on Sept 17, 2007, 10:34am »
I split my post into two parts to put my vote in here.
I apologize for miscoloring my vote. Feel free to smite for that.
I'm still not clearing Pygmy Rugger of suspicion, but the explanation is sufficient. Knowing that it was deliberate makes it easier to believe, since it seemed to be so deliberate.
If I were a mason (which I am not), my main fear would be that I'd be splitting the Doc's protection if I claimed, or worse, that there IS no Doc. And obviously, no Doc is going to be coming forward to ease my mind.
This is really scummy thinking. A confirmed Mason is the last possible target for the scum right now. No Doc should be trying to protect them right now, and to bring up that speculation seems designed to confuse the Doc, who might be a new player at it.
A few other thing have pinged me about you, so in the absence of a better candidate I'm going to