Something tells me the masons in this game would get a slightly more firefly themed name...
Well, they probably do. But the claim intent is clear and Mad probably didn't want to give away any information unnecessarily. I just hope that there aren't 2 separate mason-type groups...
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Re: Day 1 « Reply #781 on Sept 16, 2007, 2:18am »
*sigh* Three claims on Day 1??? Two with (potentially) everything written (or scum manufactured) on the PM, (name, alignment, role/abilities, win condition). Though they were delivered very differently. One containing only a role.
Interesting how Mad's claim leaves him pretty much protected from counter-claim danter. Is anyone really going to come along and say, "No! I am a Mason!!".
This game is hurting my head. Are we going to end up with multiple phases of each person claiming their different facets one at a time?
M1 - vanilla townie - win M3 - vanilla townie - win M4 - subbed-out scum - loss (but I don't count this one, because I only played for 2 days. ) M5 - monk townie - win (by the skin of my teeth){=}http://s2.images.proboards.com/wink.gif{/=}
Mad The Swine Silly orange hat-wearer member is online
KIIIYAH!
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Let's have some in-game colour to back this up, Oh Iron Pig.1 How about a name and the name of your Masonic lodge? Or are you false claiming because you are worried about a mere five votes?
1A reference to Captain Steele, Mad's role in the Pirates Mafia.
Quantities will always be expressed in the least convenient set of units available. Velocity, for example, might best be expressed in furlongs per fortnight.{=}http://s2.images.proboards.com/cool.gif{/=}
Mad, while you're here, can you give us some indication of what you were thinking with the whole argument with Story? I'd love to know if there was something specific you could point to 'twixt the last game and this one that makes you think he's more likely to be scum in this game.
Let's have some in-game colour to back this up, Oh Iron Pig.1 How about a name and the name of your Masonic lodge? Or are you false claiming because you are worried about a mere five votes?
1A reference to Captain Steele, Mad's role in the Pirates Mafia.
How bout not.
If it is a false claim,there will be a counter.If it isn't, nothing will be said.
Quantities will always be expressed in the least convenient set of units available. Velocity, for example, might best be expressed in furlongs per fortnight.{=}http://s2.images.proboards.com/cool.gif{/=}
Ok no more wine or posting for me, I'm done. "I will say no more forever."
*facepalms* Jesus rutting christ on a gos se stick of assholeaon boolean logic. The fuck, man... The fuck? Most uncool, Sinjin. But still.
Care to explain Why killing annoying townies is better than finding scum? Then i'll start to unvote you, but jeez.
Sorry, Roosh, but I've got to agree with her on that point.
Haven't you noticed how you have cluttered up the board? Haven't you noticed that your posts are pretty much white noise (promises of ideas to come, when they come, pretty much unstructured information, and when under attack screams and point by point deconstructions of what the other one said)?
If I were scum I certainly wouldn't kill you toNight, simply because your presence automatically drowns out anything anyone else says.
At the beginning of the game (usually) town can afford one or two mislynches. So if you're annoying enough it could be to our advantage to lynch you, scum or no, simply to cancel out your noise in the Day threads.
M3 - Monk- Won the game (cast the winning vote) Hispanola - Vanilla Crew - Alive at the end (win) Crazyville - Doctor- Alive at the end (win) Cult of Sekham - Crusader - Killed by Cult... after I killed a Monk(loss--didn't kill at least one Unbeliever/Cult...because I'm stupid)/Vanilla townie (win). Firefly - In space no one can hear you role-claim!
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Re: Day 1 « Reply #788 on Sept 16, 2007, 2:55am »
This could go on all Day. I have no idea how to stop it. Every single person is going to claim once they get close to a lynching, and it's going to end with a no-lynch if we're not careful. But it's a foolish gambit to execute a claimed town power role without some kind of evidence that he or she is lying. Pending some kind of counterclaim,
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Re: Day 1 « Reply #789 on Sept 16, 2007, 2:56am »
I was gonna go all rolleyed at our favorite Kooky Piggy's (I think that was Roosh's nick for him in the previous game) claim, but Cookie's already pointed out what I was going to say: How convenient of Mad the Swine to claim Mason on Day 1 when no sane Mason would pipe up to either confirm or deny him, especially not knowing what kind of setup we have right now!
Mad the Swine, you have a lot of explaining to do.
Are we going to continue the pattern of "push a bandwagon until we get a claim, and then unvote and look for the next victim"? I almost want to suggest that we might as well bite the bullet and mass name claim right away, but I don't want to put our potential power roles in the unenviable position of choosing 'twixt 1) outing themselves on Day 1 or 2) lying to keep their names a secret and risking a lynch later.
Still not voting yet as the three top people on my scumdar have claimed. I'm still going back and forth on sinjin's stance; right now I'm seeing sinjin as more frustrated townie than scum with an agenda, pending a reread.
The question then becomes...does Roosh having good knowledge of another nightkilling group or role make his eventual role-claim more or less likely to be true?
Yes, I just quoted myself. What of it?
I sat here eating my grilled cheese for a while and I still haven't figured anything out. Plus, I decided to hit the rum--it's the first really beautiful fall day of the season and there was cider at the farmer's market, and...well, yeah.
Where I managed to get in my head is the same place I was at before. Roosh knew, based on what the mods said earlier in the game, that there was a gorram good chance there's more than one nightkilling. That having been said, I think that my initial assumption, that Roosh made up a "power role" that would create a reason why he wasn't nightkilled, is still valid. If there's a SK-type role, they generally win if they're the last man standing. Obviously they wouldn't want to off someone who stated that there was a 50% chance if they did, it would backfire onto them. So Roosh's claim would protect against a SK trying to nightkill him. If Roosh is the SK-type, he's protecting against scum trying to NK him by the same reasoning.
Now, if there's a Vig and not a SK, things get interesting. As far as I know, Vigs win with the town, whether or not they're alive at the end. So Roosh may not be protecting himself from a Vig type. Or he might be the Vig, and know that no other nightkillers will risk touching him now. Color-folks, how would Inara being a Vig fit in with the canon?
The other analysis is that Roosh is what he's saying he is. But if that's the case, from whence comes his strong opinion that there is more than two nightkillers? And how does that fit in with his manifesto, which seems to have been made in part due to the fact that he knew that if people bought his idea, he was in the clear due to the generally good character he was given?
I was gonna go all rolleyed at our favorite Kooky Piggy's (I think that was Roosh's nick for him in the previous game) claim, but Cookie's already pointed out what I was going to say: How convenient of Mad the Swine to claim Mason on Day 1 when no sane Mason would pipe up to either confirm or deny him, especially not knowing what kind of setup we have right now!
Mad the Swine, you have a lot of explaining to do.
I have no explaining to do.
A sane mason would definately counterclaim me(if i was lying) and trade his outing for my life.But it wont happen.
Idle's little emotional show, with his sidekick zuma (and more importantly some apparent town responses to it, at least at first) also left me with some heightened perception of the role that drama can play for scum.
Snipped.
Sometimes, but not always. And I'd be weary to adapt that train of thought all the time. I put on a hugely dramatic show in M IV, but I was town. So the whole "Town would never be that defensive/dramarific" seemed to be blown away.
Sometimes it's the case. But I just hope nobody ever gets to thinking it's always the case.
Okay. So I was wrong about Roosh not having any actual knowledge of a 2nd killing group before making the assumption.
Roosh, post #111:
Quote:
See, here's the thing BlaM. There are multiple killing groups (The Mods said if there was 28 peep, there would be an additional killing group, so I'm assuming a min. of 2 killers at night).
<snip>
The question then becomes...does Roosh having good knowledge of another nightkilling group or role make his eventual role-claim more or less likely to be true? Right now, my head is swimming and I'm hungry and probably not quite up to the task of analyzing this. I'm going to go grab a grilled cheese sammich or something and then sit down and play through both scenarios in my head.
Well, it's also possible that Roosh just read the same post that MHaye saw about there going to be another killing group.
Ahhhh... I see you now took it back yourself. Interesting.
Anyway, claims coming all over now. Thoughts: I'm about 70 percent sure that Roosh is Town and I'm about 99.9 percent sure that dnooman is. Why? Simply because of the mod clarifcation of the roles and comparing what they have said against what my PM says. And since they were the first ones to come out with that stuff, I know that they couldn't have known what it says unless they got one with the same wording. And the confusion that led up to all of it proves it in my mind.
For example, dnooman asked, the first Night, if it was "Every man for himself". This would mesh, then, with him being Alliance Town and having his winning condition be All Alliance must be dead. Since nobody had been talking yet at that point (since it was Night), I have to think, almost without a doubt, that his PM really DOES have a win condition of all Alliance being dead for him. It makes sense...and compared with my own PM, it connects.
Secondly, this whole theme game/good/bad concern. The more the game goes on, the more I feel it is really what story and Roosh have said. That everyone has a name and that that name correlates with what side you are on. That means people who are typically good in the show/movie are good in the game and people who are bad are probably bad and people who could go either way are probably people who would be those who are like Dnooman, Alliance Town.
Again, this is just judging based on what I've seen said compared against what I know my own PM says (which I've checked and reread now at least forty times. : p)
So yeah, I do happen to believe dnooman and, to a lesser extent, Roosh. Maybe I'm setting myself up to be easily misled or letting them know, with this, that they could easily persuade me, but there it is. I feel they are town, and even though I could change in a minute pending new info, I very much doubt I'll be voting for them anytime soon.
I'm not saying every good-guy is a bad-guy or every bad-guy is a good-guy just that a salting of the switcheroos adds flavour and randomness to the game. I know I'm a bad guy in ff-verse but a good guy in NAFKat-verse. That's what caused all the confusion in the initial pm's and the NAF clarification. Did you check dnooman's character?
This plus the unvote of Roosh makes me more than happy to vote sinjin until I hear a claim that supposedly "proves" that good guys and bad guys are arbitrarily assigned to teams.
Take a gorram deep breath and defend yourself sanely.
MadtheSwine, I also want to hear some in-game color.
Color-folks, how would Inara being a Vig fit in with the canon?
Not terrifically well, but it's possible. Inara is a somewhat mysterious character, and she's definitely a dangerous sort of person. The most obvious part of her character is, of course, that she's a Companion. A role that encompasses that would make more sense. I'm hoping Roosh's role has more to it than merely striking back at night-killers.
I think that there're two or three other main characters (Jayne and River come to mind) who would make a better town-allied Vig, color-wise.
Idle's little emotional show, with his sidekick zuma (and more importantly some apparent town responses to it, at least at first) also left me with some heightened perception of the role that drama can play for scum.
Snipped.
Sometimes, but not always. And I'd be weary to adapt that train of thought all the time. I put on a hugely dramatic show in M IV, but I was town. So the whole "Town would never be that defensive/dramarific" seemed to be blown away.
Sometimes it's the case. But I just hope nobody ever gets to thinking it's always the case.
I'm assuming that since I used the presence of drama as 1/2 of 75% worth of justification for making a FOS, that my position would not be confused with me thinking it "always" indicates scummy behavior.
I'm just keeping my eyes on them.
And to reiterate the other 1/2 of the 75%, your M5 "exchanges" with Kyrie and Diggit prior to Monkgate were not full of drama but they were definitely full of scummy behavior.
M1 - vanilla townie - win M3 - vanilla townie - win M4 - subbed-out scum - loss (but I don't count this one, because I only played for 2 days. ) M5 - monk townie - win (by the skin of my teeth){=}http://s2.images.proboards.com/wink.gif{/=}
Color-folks, how would Inara being a Vig fit in with the canon?
Not terrifically well, but it's possible. Inara is a somewhat mysterious character, and she's definitely a dangerous sort of person. The most obvious part of her character is, of course, that she's a Companion. A role that encompasses that would make more sense. I'm hoping Roosh's role has more to it than merely striking back at night-killers.
I think that there're two or three other main characters (Jayne and River come to mind) who would make a better town-allied Vig, color-wise.
Random Inara-related color.
I just re-watched the "Shindig" episode, and I seem to remember that Inara sparred with Mal in preparationg for his sword duel, but that is a vague and possibly inaccurate recollection.
In one of the Reaver-related episodes, she prepared to use some sort of suicide drug to ensure that she wouldn't suffer at the hands of the Reavers, should they be able to board Serenity.
And thirdly, she had those handy flash bomb incense sticks that incapacitated the Operative in the film.
M1 - vanilla townie - win M3 - vanilla townie - win M4 - subbed-out scum - loss (but I don't count this one, because I only played for 2 days. ) M5 - monk townie - win (by the skin of my teeth){=}http://s2.images.proboards.com/wink.gif{/=}
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Re: Day 1 « Reply #797 on Sept 16, 2007, 5:05am »
Cookies, are you still going to hold the zuma/Idle feud against me, zuma's replacement? 'Cause I have no idea what those two were on before, and I know I'm town.
The only thing I might give Idle a hard time for is going on vacation in the middle of the Psycopaths game, leaving us all hanging (pun intended) during Twilight and resulting in mhaye's pre-emptive claim of Chia Bingo Master.
(Most uncool, Idle! Mafia should never take precedence over real life! )
Oh, and seeing the good points that everyone's raised concerning sinjin, I think I'm willing to commit to vote sinjin for the time being.
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Re: Day 1 « Reply #798 on Sept 16, 2007, 5:20am »
I hold no feuds against anyone. I want to be triple-clear on that. I'm trying to carry precedents and context regarding scum vs townie behavior from one game to the other. I'm not trying to carry Idle's or zuma's behavior from one game to the other.
M1 - vanilla townie - win M3 - vanilla townie - win M4 - subbed-out scum - loss (but I don't count this one, because I only played for 2 days. ) M5 - monk townie - win (by the skin of my teeth){=}http://s2.images.proboards.com/wink.gif{/=}
Sometimes, but not always. And I'd be weary to adapt that train of thought all the time. I put on a hugely dramatic show in M IV, but I was town. So the whole "Town would never be that defensive/dramarific" seemed to be blown away.
Sometimes it's the case. But I just hope nobody ever gets to thinking it's always the case.
I'm assuming that since I used the presence of drama as 1/2 of 75% worth of justification for making a FOS, that my position would not be confused with me thinking it "always" indicates scummy behavior.
I'm just keeping my eyes on them.
And to reiterate the other 1/2 of the 75%, your M5 "exchanges" with Kyrie and Diggit prior to Monkgate were not full of drama but they were definitely full of scummy behavior.
How so? I still don't see how. Sure I was scum in that game...but people have always listed possibilities of what happens during Night in this game. That's all I had did and Diggit had called me scummy for doing so.
I was scummy. But not for doing that, I don't think. So it all goes back to...always have good reasons for thinking someone is scummy. Because you may luck out sometimes (like with me), but others you may not. All round, I just think it's a bad habit to get into.
Example: The reasons Mtgman finds me suspicious in this game. : p
Okay, anyway. I've said earlier who I'm most thinking is town right now.
Here is who I am most suspicious of at the moment.
First of all, sinjin is where my vote currently lies. I don't know if it's that she's shady or just playing it weird since she's new but I find it hard to believe why she still finds Roosh so scummy, but not just that because finding peopel suspicious is fine by me...it's mostly the second part; that she can't understand why others still don't find him suspicious. Answering only for myself, I only can say that based on what he was saying when he was voting for dnooman (and was the first to reference a win condition at all), I am leaning toward Town, after checking my own PM. This also, by the way, makes me lean toward dnooman being town.
You, sinjin, say that you and dnooman are on the same team and, if so, then you MUST have the same win condition as him. Well I'm telling you that if that's the case then so does Roosh. So why you still hold him under a spotlight, I don't know. It could be one of you three is lying about it, or two of you are, or even all of you are, but seeming as how talk came from dnooman before Day even started, this leads me to think he really IS what he says he is and has the alignment he really does. And if HE does then I can understand why Roosh was going to go for his head because he was confused by the same thing I was. This leads me to believe that Roosh's condition are the same as mine and that he mistakened the same thing I did. (Interestingly enough, two others, FCoD and panamajack also mentioned similiar things, but it's harder as time goes on and more and more people claim that their win conditions are the same because it's so easy to get an idea of what those early people's win conditions are--so right now I'm only heavily leaning toward Roosh and dnooman being Town).
So in the end, if one is lying, I think it's you. And since you seem to be saying that you're on dnooman's side but don't think you're on Roosh's, this trips my wire.
Combine that with the fact that you seem to be really hard up on having us think that bad characters may not be bad or good characters may not be good in this game, it further makes me think that you have someone who is usually bad on the show and are afraid to come out with that person because you think everyone will think you're scum.
Moving on, if I had to put together a posslbe scum team, it'd look like: Drain Bead Mtgman zuma/Dotchan Diomedes
And possibly one other (which I also have canidates for but it's only based on things like feelings and intuition.
The above people, though, for the following reasons.
I've found Drain Bead to be seemingly inconsistant. Saying one thing in one post but then changing it if it doesn't sound good to anyone in the next. She also jumped at the chance to think that Roosh's name claim might be scum in this game even though that character is not typically a bad one from what I gather. Also, like I said in my longish post earlier today, I DO happen to now thing that the characters are the same in the game as they are in the show for the most part. I also feel she's tripped on lot of things scum might do in this game but tried to fix them later on (like the one fix where she started to accuse Roosh again of being scummy because he supposedly "knew" of two separate killing groups but then took it back after remembering it was already pointed out by the mod that there is.
I don't know if Mtgman is scum or just very anti town, but so far the only posts I've seen from he does squat in discussing who might be shady and for what reasons...other than myself, whom he accused of trying to derail the topic with a clarification rule. To him that's "scummy", even though he, himself, derailed it majorly with his skirmish with storyteller. Why he thinks this is okay yet finds me his top suspect I have no idea...but it is so unlike his usual gameplay that it's not funny. Before I remember seeing a Mtgman that was thoughtful and gave suggestions on how to win or figure things out, yet in this game all he seems to do is talk about how others play the game (Me with trying to interrupt it, story with..well, whatever he was accusing story of). I think THIS is a way of derailing it from game talk. So tit for tat, I guess.
zuma was acting tres weird before he subbed out and went so far as to vote Blaster for who knows what reasons using cryptic statements and then, when the ban on that talk was lifted, he subbed out. Then, dotchan took his place and seemed to say she all of pardoned dnooman but Roosh she still finds suspicious, even though they both claimed names or roles. I don't really know why you'd believe one more over the other; me, I happen to believe them both. Why you don't isn't scummy in itself but if your PM and team and alignment read as mine and what I know dnooman's and Roosh's probably does, then you'd probably be more apt to give Roosh a by pass for now. Since you seem to have an FOS on him, this leads me to believe you might not have a win condition the same as mine and his.
And finally, Dio just seems like a yes-man in this whole game. Trying to please everyone and trying to be helpful, but at the same time his posts don't really say much. Really, I read over them all a few times and it's amazing how someone could type so much but say so little. I did this too...when I was scum. So it's something that trips my meter somewhat.
There are also a lot of people who haven't posted hardly at all. Where is CaerieD, whatthefrak, and, most of all, tragic? Tragic has made ONE post in here so far. One. If that's not lurking, I don't know what is.
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Re: Day 1 « Reply #801 on Sept 16, 2007, 7:16am »
*sighs* I don't know how much more clearly I can make myself.
I suspect Roosh because: 1) His scummy behavior both before and after claiming, 2) His role ability (as other people have also pointed out) is difficult to test, 3) Inara isn't a guarenteed town (or Crew or whatever) name yet.
Yes, he claims that he has the same win condition as dnooman--but dnooman claimed his role and win condition first, and has had the luxury of being mod-confirmed. I can't quite discount the possibility that Roosh may be lying, but since it's only Day One I'm just leveling my Pointy Accusatory Finger (tm) at him. If further evidence appears that Roosh is indeed town, then I will un-Fos him and put him on my Confirmed Town list.
I'm also slightly irritated at everybody who chimed up and said: "Ooh, that's the same role and win condition as me! One of Us! One of Us!"
If (and there's the use of that hypothetical if again) they're town, then they've just tipped off the scum on who to kill off. If they're scum, then they've muddied the waters as to who I can and can't trust.
I'm especially surprised that you, Idle, would tip your hand on Day One. (Diomedes, may I borrow a non-oranged Minor Fingernail of Misgiving?)
Idle, Oh, my God! You suck! Okay, just kidding. In any event, I'm a little confused as to why you think I'm a yes-man. Because I offer help in color-questions? Because I've tried to explain, at great effort, the reasons why we should conditionally accept uncountered roleclaims to players who seem incapable of understanding those reasons? Yes, I know, perhaps I should just have kept my trap shut, voted for them, but I really think that laying out my thought processes might be helpful. If it ain't... well, then I'd be posting at the tragic level, now wouldn't I?
I think a lot of your proposed scum team seems to be based on suspicions of normal human behavior. DrainBead gets the wording of a post confused in her mind, and makes assertions based on it? And then takes back what she said based on a further investigation of the facts? If there were five pages of posts to go over, I might buy into that, but we've got, what, a thousand posts to go over? Sounds human to me.
As far as zuma/dotchan goes... well, I hardly think that we have enough information on zuma's weirdness to get an understanding as to whether it was scummy, or just that he picked up on an odd reaction to Mad's reaction (and mine, perhaps?) to dnooman's role claim. Dot's reactions don't seem to be particularly strange toward's Roosh's roleclaim. She hasn't voted for him, she's just suspicious of him. If there is a different Inara out there, who has a particularly strong power role, there might be very good reason for lack of a counterclaim. FOSing someone doesn't mean much of anything except as a breadcrumb trail for others to follow when you're dead, right? (and inciting overly verbose defenses in the thinskinned, like me ) Mgtman.... well, he seems a little scummy to me, too. But it's mostly an unjustifiable reason, like my earlier suspicions of you. Meh.
I'm really thinking that at least one (probably only one) of our role claims has to be bunko. When the numbers start climbing against someone, with the hammer lynch rule in place, there's very little that will save someone other than a roleclaim. If I were a scum, I'd roleclaim at that point just in order to salvage something out of my potential lynching. Then again, until I see a counter claim, or some real evidence to doubt any of these claims, I won't.
Why are you voting for sinjin if she's not part of your Scum-Allstars team?
I've found Drain Bead to be seemingly inconsistant. Saying one thing in one post but then changing it if it doesn't sound good to anyone in the next. She also jumped at the chance to think that Roosh's name claim might be scum in this game even though that character is not typically a bad one from what I gather. Also, like I said in my longish post earlier today, I DO happen to now thing that the characters are the same in the game as they are in the show for the most part. I also feel she's tripped on lot of things scum might do in this game but tried to fix them later on (like the one fix where she started to accuse Roosh again of being scummy because he supposedly "knew" of two separate killing groups but then took it back after remembering it was already pointed out by the mod that there is.
(underlining mine)
I did not read the whole sign-up thread, so I never saw that critical bit of info. I'd imagine quite a few others did not as well. When mhaye told me that the mods had brought it up, I went back to re-read the thread looking for what Roosh said about it. I found it and quoted it. If I were scummy, don't you think I'd make someone else do all the work to prove what I was saying to be wrong?
And I've consistently said, from the moment I made my first post in the sign-up thread onward, that I know nothing about Firefly. Never seen the show or the movie, not once. So forgive me if I might be more likely to think that Inara = scum than those who know the character. In fact, I'm pretty amazed that you would even bring that up as a point against me--hell, I've always asked people who know more about the canon than I do to analyze my ideas in terms of whether they make sense within those constraints.
But my biggest question about your post is what I underlined in the quote. How do you know that the characters in the game are the same as they are in the show? You may know YOUR character is the same, but you can't possibly know about anyone else's, unless somehow you can communicate with others and know what their roles are. I'm sure you had no intention of just outing yourself as scum or a mason, did you?
Joined: May 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 98 Karma: 0 [ Exalt | Smite ]
Re: Day 1 « Reply #804 on Sept 16, 2007, 9:15am »
OK, I've been thinking about MadtheSwine's role claim for a while, and it's bothering the living daylights out of me. I'm going to try to articulate why, and I'm going to do it quickly because I have to leave here in ten minutes.
I can think of no logical pro-town reason why Mad would claim Mason but refuse to give the actual appellation. If it's true, the fact that he's a "Mason-like role" tells the scum everything they need to know - the actual name of the role is useless to them. But I can think of two anti-town reasons:
1. He's part of a Mason-like group, all right, in which all the players know one another - but it's a group with a name like "The Reavers" or "The Blue Hands" or something like that, and they are their own anti-town faction. If he name-claimed in such a case, we'd surely be more suspicious of him and might lynch him just to find out.
2. He's scum, and false claiming. Shortly after the claim, dnooman said something that caught my eye - that he hoped that there weren't more than one Mason group. I think that's on a lot of our minds. Since the game is totally closed, we know there might be more than one Mason group. Whoever the "real" Masons are, even if they know Mad is not one of them, they wouldn't counterclaim now because, hey, maybe he's part of a different group of Masons. So it's a perfect cover - a person false claiming "Mason" but not giving the name is counting on the real Masons thinking he might be part of a second group.
I mean, did anyone else notice that Mad initially said he was a Mason. Just that. Just a Mason. Not, "I'm a Mason-like role but would rather not give my name or the name of my group (though there's not much reason for that anyway)." It was only when he was called on it that he said, "oh, yeah, yeah, we have another name."
Yes, he claims that he has the same win condition as dnooman--but dnooman claimed his role and win condition first, and has had the luxury of being mod-confirmed.
Here is what went down.
And remember...this is ALL before NAF clarified the roles.
It all started with dnooman letting slip a question about it being "every man for himself." This was during Night. He was the VERY FIRST to post anything to do about his win condition...even then, albeit it was a slip.
He then revealed that he was Alliance Town and that his win condition is if all the Alliance members are dead. To me, this fits exactly/perfectly in with why he asked what he asked during Night. Since his win is only with all Alliance dead and HE IS ALLIANCE himself, it stands to reason he'd think that he had to destroy all the other Alliance members, thus, "every man for himself."
Now THIS tripped me hard because I am NOT Alliance in any way (either scum or town) and my win is the same. So this lead me to believe that, no matter if Alliance is scum or town, to win, ALL ALLIANCE must be dead. All. Not just the bad. Not just the good. ALL.
And then...I continued catching up and came to Roosh's long post where he votes for Dnooman. I see that he did/thought the same thing I did.
How? How could he have thought and thus gotten confused/misunderstood/misinterprited the same thing? There's only one way that I know of. And that's if he had the same win condition as I do. Either that or he made a very, very lucky (and huge) assumption/guess and is thus the most intelligent scum I've ever seen in this game.
That plus, as far as I've heard this role name is a pretty MAJOR role in the series. As in, one that would probably be put in the game for sure. If I were scum, I wouldn't claim to a popular name. I'd make it be like dnooman's role, a lesser one, that way there's less of a chance anyone else would have it.
And again, you bring up the argument that it could be switched in this game. That good characters could be evil.
Me, I don't think that is. Because for one, I don't think that would fit in with a themed game. For two, knowing my OWN role, I can say that that isn't the case. I don't know much about the FF world, but from what I know, my character is a good character and I'm also on the side of good. That leads me to believe most others are too. However, I can't speak for them.
Quote:
I'm especially surprised that you, Idle, would tip your hand on Day One. (Diomedes, may I borrow a non-oranged Minor Fingernail of Misgiving?)
What's this hand tipping? I'm saying I believe them. How does that tip my hand? Or am I misunderstanding the phrase?
I'm also slightly irritated at everybody who chimed up and said: "Ooh, that's the same role and win condition as me! One of Us! One of Us!"
If (and there's the use of that hypothetical if again) they're town, then they've just tipped off the scum on who to kill off.
Am I being whooshed here? As far as I know, the scum already KNOW who to kill off as they know who is who.
Far as I know, scum just kill anyone who isn't them. And while it's true there may be a scum aligned killing role out there (much like Dick Deadeye), then I'd expect them either to lie about it anyway ("Ohhh, that's me") and be targets to scum who won't know they're getting help (See: Hockey Game V) or they won't claim/say anything at all and thus have people gang up on them with votes at being an unknown.
What's this hand tipping? I'm saying I believe them. How does that tip my hand? Or am I misunderstanding the phrase?
The claims that dnooman's alignment and win condition are the same as yours. With so many people having already claimed vanilla townie this way, I didn't expect you to also paint a giant target on your back. If these claims are true, then the scum have a reduced pool of people from which they can guess power roles. If these claims are false, then the scum can leverage bandwagons by bandying their townie cred.
Let me clarify if I can without shooting myself in the foot if that is even possible now.
I was initially suspicious of Roosh because of his name theory posted in his manifesto back on I think page 10. To summarize:
1) All Townies have names 2) Scum don't have names or have generic names 3) Suspected scum should be forced to name claim 4) Since they don't have names or only generic names they would have to pick a fake name 5) There's a limited number of names in the fire-fly-verse 6) Therefore it's likely that someone else already has that name and will counter-claim 7) If someone counter-claims, you examine both of them 8) If no one counter claims you're assumed to be 'town'
I had a number of problems with the whole of his manifesto and you can go back and find them. A lot of people appeared to agree with me. A couple of the major problems I had with the manifesto were;
1) The possibility that scum would claim a major character name who might possibly have a power role who would not want to out themselves on day one so no counter-claim would be forthcoming. 2) How did Roosh know that scum didn't have names or had generic names
Then Roosh name-claimed as Inara and claimed a minor power role and was almost immediately exonerated by some for one of two reasons.
1) He claimed a major character and a minor power role 2) No one counter-claimed
I conflated those two things together and contributed to the confusion in this thread. I was not aware there was an unwritten rule that those who claim to be major characters with minor powers are given the benefit of the doubt on the first day. Cookies pointed that out to me yesterday. So I owe CatInaSuit a major apology.
However a number of folks just used the no counter-claim reason for exonerating him. This to me is still ASTOUNDING because it is solely based on Roosh's theory that scum have no names or generic names. There is no basis to believe this. That is what I arguing about so voraciously last night. I finally figured out DOH! that people were taking my arguments as a demand that Roosh be lynched immediately. So I unvoted him to try to separate the lynch Roosh theme from the "Why are we suddenly buying into this theory" theme.
On the dnooman/Roosh thing. When he posted his role and stated that his alignment was 'crew' and his win condition was 'All Alliance are dead' I knew he was telling the truth because that's what mine said (although no one will probably believe that now). However when Roosh posted his it was such a confusing mishmash it seemed to me that he was faking it. He then proceeded to say rather forcefully that he wasn't on dnooman's team and wanted to kill him and all the members of his 'town'. His usage of the phrase "I'm in a town" several times was suspicious to me since I was crew, not town, not in a town. That 'crew' label was what I was obliquely talking because I didn't want to bring it to the attention of scum and give them more information. So if Roosh wasn't on dnooman's team he wasn't on mine either. Note this was later clarified by NAF
All Roosh's claim does is tell me the name. He has not role-claimed - that is, told us anything about alignment and/or powers.
Man. I really hope you're scum if you think that then. If not, you might want to go back and read my role claim. I pretty much WROTE out my Win condition (and led to a Mod Posting on it), and I gave you an indication of my Special abilities.
:shrug: But Yeah. If you didn't see that. That's shiny. ~~~~~~~~~~~~
MadTheSwine. Um... If you're a mason... :shrug: i'd like something more. We don't even know if Masons EXIST in this game. I mean. If no other groups counter you, that's fine. But... I don't even know if there are masonic orders in the FF world, or something that'd be equal to it.
I did think your smearing of Story was telling, but I figured it was you being you. And way too foolish to be Scummy. Since then I'd been waiting to hear back (Since you did say you were busy for the rest of the week). and now you claim mason status.
*coughs* Care to give us a Name with your thing? Or would that give away others in your group, if they're all related or something, then by all means keep quiet. But I for one... would be curious to know your Name. ~~~~~~~~~~ On Killing Groups.
The question then becomes...does Roosh having good knowledge of another nightkilling group or role make his eventual role-claim more or less likely to be true?
I don't have any "Extra" knowledge outside of what my pm is. The idea of 2 killers though came from that post (where the mods had been saying if they could get 28 peep they could add an extra killing role (somewhere on the pregaming signup threads).
And the fact that the Mods pointed out that the introductory game flavor actually may be pertinent to the game.
And when i go back and read it, they mention 2 groups. Blue Suns, and the alliance. I was aware of the Alliance group (because my win condition is to have them all dead obv, so obviously they must exist in order to die). But nothing of this Blue Sun group. they are not in my Role's flavors, win, conditions, nothing. That is why I'm wondering who or what the guay they are. But they sound bad.
And so... me going with my gut, I'll post what I'm thinking anytime 100% for the town's sake. So yeah, I might be saying what others are thinking, but don't want to take the risk of putting themselves out there without any proof. But i'll do it. Because we gotta think of the possibilities (what i'm MOST afraid of is a cult-like group. I believe storyteller got into this discussion with me and the others on it, right after the Mod Note to look at the flavor of day1). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Haven't you noticed how you have cluttered up the board? Haven't you noticed that your posts are pretty much white noise (promises of ideas to come, when they come, pretty much unstructured information, and when under attack screams and point by point deconstructions of what the other one said)?
Yeah. Since then I've said I'll cut back. AND I HAVE. So why bring up old crap? I've said i'll change, and I have been doing so. If you're going to bring up old ideas that don't help out the town any, then well.... :shrug: I can't help you. But take a look since My claim. I've DEF. cut back. So if you want to lynch me for learning from my mistakes, then go ahead. ~~~~~~~~~ Idle thoughts Post #800 : Good post : Either you're a thinking townie (and you actually READ your PMs over and over while reading my thoughts). Or you're scum who is trying to get on my good side, because right now i'm really trusting of you. You remembered Storyteller last game? Good news? I remember Storyteller last game as well. He turned out town, even though the whole time i was suspicious of him for being too townie.
So I'm gonna let you know... I'm watching you because you're doing what I'm saying, and you're agreeing with me. Which i find suspicious, but that's old hand.
So good job. Thoughts of Paranoia on Idle Thoughts. *though one note. I find Dio to be quite noobie townie, and less suspicious. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Dotchan~~~~~~ Actually I stated i had a DIFFERENT win condition than that which I thought Dnooman had. That is what led to the "mod clarification" basically saying that okay, Dnooman could have the same win condition as myself. That's why I'm inclined to think he's town. But only if other alliance crew exist in the game. So i'm gonna trust him for now, but obv. i'll be looking towards newer data in the later game (ie: if no Alliance Crew members are dying, I'm gonna look back at him. *This is because I'm reading the Mod note as "IF alliance crewmembers exist, then they are crew/town", it's all about that one "if" that the Mod put in there, that's hesitating to make me think Dnoo is 100% clean.) (Also, because of the fact that Diomedes pretty much TOLD him the townie win condition on Night 1, a fact that most people are overlooking, and a reason i told Diomedes to shut the guay up. And the WAY Diomedes put it, makes me WAY more inclined to believe HIM than Dnoo, obv. because that's how mine is worded. (and the greatest reason Idle, I'm not distrusting of him, he's just a overeager NoOb that first night. Kinda how Pygmy was setting a "trap" to age so to speak, i kinda viewed Dnoo as doing that Night 1. And Dio fell right into it. Because it seemed to me (that time) that it was Scum going okay, so what are we going to be calling the scum this game? Before we knew about Alliance or Blue Hand were even IN the game.)
~I'm going to post this. If any replies have been made since my writing of this. I'll respond/address them. But this is my big post of the day for right now. I pretty much just read through the thread now and chronologically address the posts w/ ~~~~ to avoid confusion/separate new ideas. I feel this is less cluttering. Anyways, That's it for now.
Robert Smith Should do a Cover of Coldplay's Clocks, so when he sings "Am I part of the cure/ or am I part of the disease?" We can say, "Ooh, we know this one!"
Some people call me the space cowboy, Yeah... Some call me the gangster of Love....